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[R&F] Civ of the Week: Georgia

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Aug 20, 2018.

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Who should be next weeks Civ?

Poll closed Aug 27, 2018.
  1. China

    32.5%
  2. Mongolia

    12.5%
  3. Poland

    47.5%
  4. Let’s do Rome again (because I didn’t get enough aqueducts with Khmer)

    7.5%
  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    So I played a game (Emperor/Shuffle) that has pretty poor land, but it's actually tailor made for Georgia! How did that happen?



    NOTE: It's apparentloy "coast and lake" But I don't think it gives fresh water. (?)

    Anyhow, I managed to capture a Holy Site from Fredrick and things went better from there. I founded a religion by slowly running Holy Site prayers and got defender of the faith.

    Spoiler :


    Nobody was to the south besides a cultural and Babylon, so I could slowwllly convert them, and send envoys which provided a good boost since I had no mountains anywhere on this silly map. I also sent my religion to the slightly far away Stockholm and because Fredrick was in a war with Mohenjo-Daro since the start, I could declare protectorate war to increase my faith from 9 faith per turn to 18 faith per turn. (lol) Victoria and Lautaro attacked and it's pretty dumb how Mapuche basically just hard counters the crap out of Georgia but Defenders of the Faith worked well.

    Ended up with 3 science CS's and 2 culture ones, so Kilwa was very useful, but the production was too bad to really make much else.

    Game ended here
    Spoiler :


    But screw that. I'm only a few turns from Globalization, so I clicked one more turn for a few more turns to put in the International Space Agency (which is a great card I somehow never noitced) Also putting in the Raj card for kicks.

    Pretty good science for 5 campuses, eh? Though I'm wondering how to get to Globalization faster as I never do it fast enough.
    Spoiler :


    CSs (that somehow didn't die):
    Spoiler :
     

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
    acluewithout likes this.
  2. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Georgia is kinda sucky, but if the next expansion includes some form of diplomatic victory, things will be different.

    Consider: found and spread a religion in the first half of the game. Double envoy buff. city states give up the goods. early world congress / league of nations mechanism giving your religion bonuses. more city states, more envoys. Cranky diplomatic exiles make moves against you, so declare the right kind of wars for the faith bonus, while their soldiers bounce off your walls and fail to dislodge your hill folk.

    Final act of the game, as your exhausted, faithless, diplomatically sidelined rivals fall further and further behind, and your envoy hordes continue to grow and grow through Raj and Containment, you faith buy key great people, and thats a (speculative) diplomatic victory in the bag.

    guess we'll wait and see, huh?
     
  3. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Don't walls get tourism in the late game of is it just culture? Perhaps adding bonus tourism to Georgia's walls might give them a more standard bonus that isn't so situational.

    Agree with most posters, she's weak. Even Norway's Stave church has better utility than the wall. The constant golden ages would also be nice for domination since it'd mitigate loyalty problems and could reduce warmonger penalties depending on your dedication.
     
  4. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I think she could get an extra bonus to building walls. That'd actually be the most practical thing.

    Though I'm sure some exploit happy folks are suddenly gonna be like "ergmagawd top tier, if I build ancient walls to 1 turn and shift-enter for 60 turns I can build a spaceport" but yea.
     
  5. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    This single oversight/intended feature/mechanic drives me to madness. Given that it's probably something that can be literally fixed forever by changing A*(X+Y) to A*(X)+Y, and what an exploit it really is. Of course, what a modder or developer can do is simply give georgian walls the UD treatment and reduce the base cost instead of confer a +% production bonus. "Build walls in half the time" vs "Build walls twice as fast." A bit incongruous with other leaders, but doable.

    My biggest beef with Georgia and why I've never finished a game with them is that their bonuses, while neato, don't actually 1) change how I build my civ 2) make me want to change how I play my civ.
    On the point 1): look at the screenshots posted in this thread. You know what they all have? Farms and mines; the same districts and wonders as 'EveryCiv'; it's pretty vanilla. Compare to a number of civs which have UI or UD that mix that story up- whether its Indonesia settling awkward islands for kampung or cramming as many mekewaps in as you can; or the distinctive way roman cities have baths and korean seowons sit apart from urban sprawl.
    On point 2): Georgia doesn't have other bonuses that orient strategic thinking. If I play eg Nubia or Japan, i'm going to try to maximize the mileage from the civ's abilities because its just a fun way to shake things up.Maybe georgia's bonuses just don't synergize enough.

    I for one, would very like to see them reforged into the 'citadel civilization,' bristling with bastions and walls and fortresses. Now, if we adjusted the faith from protectorate wars bit into, say, the reverse mapuche and gave her a +10 combat bonus when she's in a golden age (delimited to be either only in her territory, or perhaps only against civs that aren't in a golden age.) Or some other means of making Golden Age Georgia truly shine- maybe they get automatic ecstatic bonuses or more GP or something- Then we'd have an civ ability to keep you GAs, a leader ability to make you want to get there, and two defensively oriented uniques to fend off those pesky savages who want to take your shiny stuff. GET OFF MY HILL, YA HEAR?!

    Tsikhe should definitely be adjusted. Even if it was something like "Tsikhe automatically upgrade to the highest level of walls available" and they started as ancient walls. I would prefer if they conferred some qualitative edge given that they go obsolete at steel, but they need to do something, my goodness.

    As for the Khevsur, post the spring patch, I think they are as okay as they can get without changing other game rules (upgrade into them or adjusting the tech tree.) 45 strength is precisely the power a medieval melee unit should have; cost 160 isn't that far off where they should be. At least they don't lose to swordsman anymore. UUs that don't replace anything, like the Khevsur, aren't that bad for most players- in a world where you don't spam warriors in the ancient era and rely on them for the rest of the game. Sometimes people build their military in later ages- not everyone plays that optimized way. My dream would be for the FXS dev/balance team to just release a short 'white paper' explaining why they balanced things the way they did and the intention behind certain choices. I should just make that my signature.

    Other things that would help Georgia: hills bias, proliferation of golden age dedications, change monarchy's card distribution to lose a military slot and gain a diplo slot. There's a whole bunch of things that interact with defensive and influence/envoy based stuff that are a bit limited in what you can parlay them into.
     
  6. liv

    liv Emperor

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    Having played Khmer then Georgia on deity I think Georgia was better than Khmer. Their ability to run consecutive golden ages makes it quite possible to rush out a religious victory far more effectively than what Khmer could. It is true that getting faith from having missionaries killed can work but I found that I had several civs taken over long before they started to fight back killing my units and having units killed is sort of working against you if you are going for religious victory, getting more charges from your missionaries and apostles was far more useful.
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I agree with this completely: “I for one, would very like to see them reforged into the 'citadel civilization,' bristling with bastions and walls and fortresses. ” The game needs a proper castles and knights medieval Civ.

    I think Medieval and Renaissance Walls should just give a flat +1 housing each, or there should be a Military Card a Divine Right that gives housing for walls. Monarchy would then need a new ability, eg +1 culture and +1 production in your capital and in all cities within 6 tiles of your capital, or +1 culture and +1 food per level of walls (either way, something focused in growth).

    If you buffed walls like this, and leaving aside my comments about religion, I think Georgia would be fine. I’d maybe extend the Khevsar’s bonuses to cover woods and hills, but that’s it really. You could maybe have walls give adjacency (+1 per wall level would be powerful, so maybe +1 for Renaissance walls) but if walls were already buffed I don’t think they’d really need that.

    (I’d also like a white paper from FXS, but would settle with a YouTube clip or reddit post explaining their thoughts on balance.)
     
  8. liv

    liv Emperor

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    Improving renaissance walls is not going to do much. First of all walls are not very useful as it is. Secondly there is very few turns to build renaissance walls. Science usually moves fairly quickly and the gap between when you can build them and when they become obsolete is very short. Golden ages will remain their most powerful bonus and if you play all out for a religious victory you are not going to do that much fortification.
    In my game what I needed was allies and funds to pay them to go to war with the civs that were likely to attack me or attacked me
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  9. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Do you lose the faith bonus when you hit steel?
     
  10. liv

    liv Emperor

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    No
     
  11. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Your existing walls remain, but, you cannot build any new ones. So the Tsikhe have to be built in the window between Siege Tactics and Steel- which is what, 1-1.5 eras apart? And obviously a late start game can preclude them entirely.
    In Civ5, the Babylonians had unique walls, but they granted extra health and strength to the defenses. That would be more fitting than +3 faith. Usually a Renaissance wall is only good if you've not much to build and you want to pick up the 3 tourism that comes at conservation. Beyond that, Renn Walls come when bombards and muskets and Pike & Shot do. A defensively minded player may note that simply building a single musketman or pike & shot troop will do more to raise your city defense rating than building new walls will. (Defense rating tracks your highest strength land unit built iirc; city bombard is based on your best ranged unit built.) You can also station those units in a city and use them to defend actively. And those units are cheaper than the Tsikhe to boot. It's choppy.
     
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    A lot of Civs with unique buildings have a similar problem, where you need to build quite a few other things before you can build your thing. EG Norway, that has to build a Holy Site and Shrine before it can build its Stave Church. (As an aside: one thing I really liked about England was that you basically got a unique district and unique building, and your commercial hubs in effect were also discounted because you could get two trade routes...)

    Georgia ‘s walls are a bit unique in that they actually obsolete at some point. Added to that, the two pre-req buildings (ancient and medieval walls) aren’t great either.

    I still think the real issue is walls in general, rather than Georgia’s walls specifically. I don’t think Georgia’s UB was ever meant to be that powerful - it’s the envoys and golden ages that are their key powers. I’d rather buff their unit than their walls.
     
  13. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    It's particularly bad for me since I go computers after getting economics/replacable parts, so I actually don't research Siege tactics until I get computers. So that's like.... 6 turns before I get that and steel : Maybe I should remember to build them right then. :lol:

    Yea the tech tree is screwed up
     
  14. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    another top halfer like me. I often pick up electricity before steel. Once I get economics for Big Ben it's all top half for me. If going for culture victory I pick up computers as well. It's one reason I never build renaissance walls. I beeline steel after computers and pick up Eiffel Tower.
     
  15. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    The reason why the Tsikhe appears to be a Renaissance Wall replacement appears to be cosmetics. It would be kinda sucky to have such a beautiful wall building, only to have it replaced by a generic medieval or renaissance wall :p

    Of course, the entire concept of the Tsikhe itself is flawed (it should've been an ability, not a separate building) but oh well.
     
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  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    An ability based around each level of walls would have been very cool, with maybe the actual Tsikhe wall being sort of an extra UB you get at the end. I guess Georgia would have then needed some other UB as its main Building...

    e.g. “Strength in Unity. (... blah blah, golden age thing) Walls provide +1 faith per level. Can build Tsikhe instead of Renaissance walls, which provides an additional 1 adjacency to all adjacent districts.
     
  17. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    True, although I think the Stave Church is still way better:
    • A Temple is something you are far more likely to want than Renaissance Walls
    • The benefits you would get from a Holy Site+Shrine+Stave Church are better
    • You can get the Stave Church earlier
    • The Stave Church will not become obsolete
    • The base production cost to get up to the Stave Church is 54 + 65 + 105 = 224 production. The base production cost to get a Tsikhe is 80 + 225 + 265 = 570 production.
    And that is comparing it to the Stave Church, which is itself hardly the best unique infrastructure in the game.
     
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  18. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I like walls, they keep you from having to maintain huge standing armies while dissuading potential invaders. I think the general idea with Georgia is to level up your walls and then faith-buy defenders if someone attacks you or your city states.
     
  19. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I always build walls. I even build encampments because I'm always afraid of being invaded. Sometimes I even limes out Medival Walls. But Renaissance Walls for a few faith? Nope!
     
  20. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I like walls too, I just wish there was more reason to get them, especially higher level ones. I often build Ancient Walls, as that gives me the city strike, and helps me defend against barbarians and early AI agression. I rarely see much need for Medieval Walls, and Renaissance Walls are nearly completely useless.
     
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