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[R&F] Civ of the Week: Japan

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Aug 7, 2018.

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Who should be next weeks Civ? (Medieval)

Poll closed Aug 14, 2018.
  1. China

    22.6%
  2. Georgia

    16.1%
  3. Khmer

    35.5%
  4. Mongolia

    3.2%
  5. Poland

    22.6%
  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    • Leader: Hojo Tokimune.

    • Leader Ability: Divine Wind. Land Units receive +5 Combat Strength adjacent to the Coast, and Naval Units receive +5 Combat Strength in Shallow Water. +50% Production towards Encampments, Theatre Districts and Holy Sites.
    • Civ Ability: Meiji Restoration. All Districts receive +1 Adjacency Bonus for each Adjacent District (instead of +0.5).

    • Unique Unit: Samurai. Unique Melee Unit. Unlocks at Military Tactics and upgrades to Musketman. Combat Strength is 48, no combat penalties when injured, Move 2, Production Cost 160, Maintenance 3. Makes awesome "swhing" noise when it moves.

    • Unique Infrastructure: Electronics Factory. Unique Industrial Zone Building that replaces the Factory. +4 Production to this City and all other Cities within 6 tiles. +1 Citizen Slot, +1 Great Engineer Point, +4 Culture [I'm pretty sure the culture isn't regional as well, but someone should check that]. Production Cost 355, Maintenance 2, unlocks at Industrialization.
    • Leader Agenda: Bushido. Likes Civilizations with strong military, faith or culture, and dislikes Civs that are weak in those areas.
    • Interesting links: [Sorry, running a bit late this week - again - these will come later!]
    Notes:
    • [Will come later. Which is Sad, because I really like Japan, and wanted to write a bit about them. Oh well.].
     
  2. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Japan is a civ you can't help but kind of like (as I do like the country in real life), their bonuses are somewhat useful, although not overly so. I mostly like them from a RP perspective. I'm finding during my games that they are good, but definitely not overpowered.

    Divine Wind hasn't been particularly helpful in my current game as I started in the middle of a vast continent. They apparently don't have a coastal bias. I actually started two games with them. I'll post both games in case anyone is interested. Both games weren't on the coast so the coastal combat bonuses are questionable for this civ. Half price theaters are quite good, and useful for cultural victory. Half price holy sites are okay, and useful for getting a religion in time. Half price encampments are probably the least useful, I have yet to build one in my current game. I just read it's +50% production, so not actually half price, still useful, however.

    Meiji Restoration: A good ability which benefits you all around. I'm not the biggest fan since I'm not the best pre planner regarding districts, and I often don't clump them together. So I don't get the best benefit out of this ability. I know I should plan out my districts when building each city, I just never do. I'm lazy about that.

    Samuraii: I often don't feel the need for offensive warfare at this point in the game. All you do if you do that is ensure you'll never get an alliance before the end of the game. If you don't care about that aspect of diplomacy, go right ahead and keep conquering. I build these just for era points. They look pretty, but they almost never see action.

    Electronics Factory: I checked my save on turn 371 from that A1 start I am posting here, and I do not appear to get culture in nearby adjacent cities from this. I didn't think I would. Although I'm getting +3.7 from modifiers, not sure what that is but doesn't seem to be the adjacent city electronics factory. The culture is nice, but of course culture won't get you a culture victory, though can defend against one. Just helps power you through the civs tree. Honestly this unique building isn't all that great. I'd rather have a unique bank or stock market that makes lots of money.

    The first game I started a couple weeks ago inspired by the thread about Pericles and Peter. I wanted a game with 4 of the biggest great people hogs in the game to see how challenging it would be to get a cultural victory with them in. So you won't be going in blind, you will know the 4 biggest cultural great people hogs are in the game. Second game is just a standard map with random civs. Both on King difficulty. Which is a difficulty level I like as it allows me to build lots of wonders, but not necessarily always get them. The first game I still haven't finished, and fighting for great people hasn't been as challenging as I anticipated, fighting for wonders was actually the bigger challenge.

    A civ like Japan while can do cultural victories, can not compete with the 4 civs who snatch up great people (I forgot about Scotland though, but they don't snatch up the artistic GP) in this game (the save is A1 if anyone wants to play, this is probably the more interesting game rather than J1 especially since it's a tougher starting location).

    A1 start:
    Spoiler :


    J1 start: (edit: had to edit out a steam message)
    Spoiler :


    I actually had one more game started on the Asia true start location map. That didn't end well when the Mongols were on the verge of taking one of my cities (on the mainland, not on my starting location island). I could have reloaded 10 turns for an autosave, and maybe get some units to defend it, but I'd rather not. I just abandoned that game. This map is a hell of a doosy for Japan. If you want challenge, go for this map. You're only hope is to settle on the mainland. And while I was able to make friends with most civs to avert the threat of attack (so I could concentrate on settlers and expanding to try to catch up to everyone else), the Mongols did not want to be friends.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  3. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    Strike me as a good all around leader choice for a myriad of map and victory conditions. Combat bonuses for island plates maps, cheap encampments for multiplayer encampment spam, theatre districts for cultural victories, and holy sites for religious victories.

    I played 2 games, 1 deity and 1 king. The deity degenerated quickly into a generic string of endless warring and conquests due to the nature of deity level AI’s relative aggressiveness/competitiveness. This didn’t allow me to use much of the Mejju Restoration adjaceney bonuses, which are not to be taken lightly! I had a +6 campus in the middle of nowhere (ie. the nearest mountain is 5 tiles away).

    Spoiler :
    +6.png

    As the game passed I became accustomed to the high adjacency bonuses. Example, when I first saw this +5 Theatre Square I was excited and snapped a screenshot. But as the game passed, I realized it was fairly standard fare for Japan.
    Spoiler :
    TS.png

    Frankly, by the end of the game, if a commercial district wasn’t +4, I just wouldn’t bother. Maybe a trade route, festival, or something :lol:.

    I missed out on the "swhing" noise, perhaps I’ll go back and buy one with a saved file to hear it.

    I have been unable to verify that these Electronics Factories give any cultural bonuses what-so-ever to their native city or any other. So far as my limited investigation can tell, they don’t (although I’m assuming they really do but the program city display is bugged).

    I was able to verify the awesome "swhing" noise the Samurai make when moving.


    The game timed out with a cultural victory in 685AD.
    Spoiler :
    CV.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  4. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    It's possible they do and the display is bugged, but I'm assuming no. It's too bad because that would make the electronics factory much more useful and unique in my opinion.

    Spoiler :
     
  5. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    I think you're right. And I think it would be justified in the real world as well. The production oriented culture of innovation spurred on by things like the Toyota Production System, Kaizen, etc...et al...were game changers and spread throughout the world. Personally I would leave the +4 culture but bump the production bonus to +6.

    EDIT: Rationale. At 1st glance, you might think this adjacent cities should get bonus culture, but I think the manufacturing innovation is a product of Japanese culture rather than a source. Hence the logic to leave the +4 culture in a single city, but bump the electronics factory production bonus to +6 for all cities within 6 tiles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  6. Haig

    Haig Warlord

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    Japan is both fun to play and strong.

    Meiji Restoration is suited for dense district-centers surrounding cities, and Divine wind gives even more bonuses as you can build many districts quicker.

    Combatwise Divine Wind is situational but is best suited for naval units and marine-type infantry.

    Samurai is simply one of the coolest units, it's "finishing" animation when killing a last soldier is nice.

    When playing Japan, I like to create a base of about four prospering cities, and then use navy to conquer enemy coastal cities.
    Ironclads and Destroyers are well suited for this.
     
  7. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    And I think the culture bonus for the factory should be called anime. :) Just like the Scottish golf course shouldn't be called golf course, but whisky distillery. :)

    After looking at one of those screen shots above, I realize how bad I utilize the adjacency bonus of Japan. Of course it helps to have 4 cities at the points of a square like the above picture. Very rarely am I able to place my cities in such a fashion. I know I focus so much on freshwater and resources, but I really shouldn't with Japan, and really plan out my cities to best utilize the adjacency bonuses. I just got a +5 theater square, for me that's pretty good.
     
  8. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Warlord

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    Given that Japan is the 3rd largest whisky producer in the world and is currently the winner for best single malt produced perhaps they should have the distillery.

    I don't think anime really fits a factory. I presume they didn't want to give Japan something too similar to Americas UB but Electronics Factory is pretty unexciting.

    Apart from the UB I like Japan but never seem to use the UU much.
     
  9. Cedbird77

    Cedbird77 Chieftain

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    Japan is fun and OP. My biggest runaway game was with them. It was so bad so I jad to stop the game and start with another Civ.

    I am used to runaway but the district bonuses are the key I think. An I like the Samaurai unlike many people. What's not to like about being at full battle strength at all time?
     
  10. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    The culture bonus only comes once you research electricity.
    The Electronics factory is great because it's an extra production plus that delicious 4 culture. 4 culture is just amazing as a free bonus- I can never remember if it's regional or not because I build them everywhere. Which one may consider doing because...

    I became a much better empire builder once I realized that having the biggest single cities possible is not the end all of building, but rather how to place cities to take the most advantage of the space you have. The common way to maximize Japan's district ability is to make clusters of 3-4 cities and then build a district megalopolis in the space between them. (Usually this means keeping them kinda close, like 4ish tiles.) As seen above, having a gov't plaza in the center of a ring of districts is crazy strong too, since the GP will give +1.5. I find it is very useful to spam the yield districts - campus, TS, IZ, CH- to get high adjacency and then turn around and slot the 50%+50% building yield cards. Unlike most civs, you can easily attain the +3 or +4, and since you're spamming districts, you want at least 10 pop in those cities anyways. The dutch have a similarly nice boost with rivers and some of those districts. It's very understated: being able to consistently generate the adjacent of +3 effectively takes you from 150% building yield to 200%. That's +4 culture, +5.5 science, +7.5 gold more gold per city.
    The gameplay is similar, but more generalized, to playing Germany this way and making the 'megalopolis' out of commercial hubs and Hansas. (This is probably my favorite civ6 strategy. Nothing like 20+ production hansas...) Hojo's ability to get 3 districts half off comes in very handy when building too.

    Nitpick: the loading screen will say Japan's districts have an additional standard adjacency bonus for being adjacent to another district. This is untrue, it's an additional minor adj bonus, or a single standard bonus, full stop. (Standard is +1, minor +0.5, major +2.)

    I really enjoy having a medieval melee UU. It's as strong as a knight, Melee gets amazing promotions, can be rolled into muskets... It's true heavy infantry for the mid game. I hate that you always have to hard build them, but that's not the worst thing (you have to do something with all those +6 IZs anyways!)
     
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  11. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Chieftain

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    I really like Japan since I prefer civs with a cultural emphasis in general. They are probably my 3rd favourite civ in the game after Persia and France. I also like to plan my districts in advance so the MJ ability works well for me without it being OP.

    I've heard a lot of people saying the samurai is useless I seem to use them a lot during a large chunk of the early mid game, especially if you beeline military tactics and build lots of encampments which the DW civ ability lets you do easily. In the long period between swordsmen and musket men samurai seem to dominate most civs but I mainly use the units for defence, liberating cities and to raid and force favourable trade deals rather than to conquer cities.

    The Palace design is my favourite in the game and the music is also good and appropiate for Japan as well. If I get to found a religion I like to chose shinto for Japan so it would be nice if a Torri, the traditional Japanese gate, could be included as another religious belief option. It's effects could be +3 faith +2 culture.
     
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  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I really like Japan. Norway and Japan have been my go to Civs since the Great England Disastet of Two Thousand and Eighteen. Sigh. We lost so many Redcoats and Traderoutes that year. Oh, the humanity.

    ...uh. Anyway.

    The default gap in Medieval Melee units makes Samurai pretty cool. Three half price districts plus additional adjacency makes it feel like you have three unique districts. Combat bonus is very cool because it adds a fun additional tactical element even if it is hard to use (compare America’s bonus, which is more powerful, but just so boooooooring). Overall, a good power level - not OP, but very viable of you play them well, and you can usually get something out of most of their abilities.

    Love Japan, but they do get hurt by two things. First, the overall weakness of anti-cav and Miltary Tactics. You should be upgrading a heap of spears to piles when you unlock MT to support the Samurai you’re going to hard build (like upgrading horses to cav when you unlock Redcoats), but it doesn’t work that way because pikes lack so much punch and MT feels like too much of a detour.

    Second, IZ and its buildings are weak, making the Electronics Facotry underpowered even with its bonus yields.

    Japan, along with Norway, Georgia and Greece, are all Civs that could become just awesome if FXS ever rebalance the game properly (specifically, rebalancing Anti- Cav, MT, IZ / IZ buildings / late game production, and maybe Walls).
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Finished my later save game of Japan (save J1 one above), turned out to be more challenging than expected. Spoilers following if you are playing that J1 save above. I actually expected A1 to be more challenging, and it will be interesting to compare Culture victory times when I finish A1. Thing is Australia is a thing. The gossip kept saying they are going for culture victory, yet they kept conquering city states and other civilizations (like the Cree and later Persia). Really pisses me off that John Curtin is such a hypocrite. He says he doesn't like warmongers, yet he is one himself. I love civ6 over Civ5 in nearly every way, but one thing Civ5 did better was peaceful civs were actually peaceful civs, where warmongering civs were actually warmongering civs. You could expect aggression from Mongolia and Zulu. In civ6 you can easily get in alliances with those civs. The civ personalities in Civ 6 need work.

    As I said, Australia was a thing, they really kept conquering cities. Eventually they stopped once the only other civ on their continent was Rome, who was also quite strong. John Curtin actually finished with a higher score than me, which is the first time that has ever happened in a King level game.

    I will eventually finish my A1 save above in post #2, probably tomorrow, and I would like to compare win times. Japan is a civ I love, and I don't mind playing them more than once. Even though I don't consider them that strong, at least not for my play style.

    My ranking for A1 save is Catherine the Great #6. Turn #500. I forgot to build government district in my capital, and hence national history museum. I like to build that in my capital with art museum and Reyna fully promoted. Not sure if it would have made much difference. Events in game made building government district in my capital not feasible, at least not in a timely manner.

    You are almost tempting me to play again, I know I can do better. And not be lazy and plan my cities and districts better. As strong as their bonuses can be, they still have trouble competing against civs like Australia. I really can't rank them above a C+ because of their slow culture victory times. Part of this is my fault for not micromanaging enough, but for my play style that's what I rank them as. Perhaps they are better suited for space victory, not culture victory. Since you are building factories anyways because of the electronics factory. I'm tempted to play again going for science victory. They are ill suited for cultural victory in my opinion. Their factory comes too late to provide enough culture to power you through.

    Looking at my other save games for civ of the week, this has been my slowest cultural victory other than Egypt which was one difficulty level lower (that was a Prince game). I really can't say they are well suited for Cultural victories at this point. I kind of want to try them for science victory. They have to be better at that than cultural victory. Sadly, this was my 2nd slowest time.

    I did manage to build Petra in a city next to Delicate Arch. Which is one of my favorite natural wonders only because I've actually been there. The AI wasn't in a hurry to build Petra, and I managed to snag it (though I still had to trade route stack to get it). Sadly, I couldn't get Huey, despite this being a good map for it.

    Spoiler :
    /spoiler]
     

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    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  14. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    He certainly does sound crazed for a leader that gets double production when someone declares a surprise war on him.
    ":crazyeye:War can only bring us loss. Loss of lives, loss of productivity, loss of our very humanity!:crazyeye:"
     
  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I like that Japan is C+. The sweet spot is Civs that are C or C+ but with heaps of personality.

    Man, Australia really annoy me. I actually like that Australia is secretly a warmonger. I’ve said this before, but Civ does this thing where it ends up representing the “Civ” version of historical people and events, not the “real” ones. Ghandi is the obvious example, but Korea as “Super Sentai Science Ninja Team GO!” and (perhaps) Australia “No we don’t like war (*builds fleet of tanks - raises all your cities*), yeah, nah, war’s bad mate”.

    What I hate about Australia is seeing John Curtin in like the Ancient Era. I wish there was a way to exclude modern “civs” and or only have them spawn in later eras.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  16. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Japan has an interesting set of bonuses. The cheap districts combined with extra adjacency give them a lot of flexibility. Theaters in particular benefit from the adjacency. I like the puzzle of maximizing my adjacency bonuses and Japan really rewards you for it. They can snatch a religion and an early GG with the right start. They aren't fantastic at any one thing but they're good at pretty much all VCs. Samurai are fun but impractical due to MT. You could feasibly buy them with faith but they're still slow. The factory replacement is a dud though. The IZ is just too much of a waste of hammers for a little extra culture to change things. Maybe if the era score will get you a golden/heroic age? That doesn't seem likely though.
     
  17. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Warlord

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    Japan is fun overall. I found it also to be one of the best civs for religious victory. You could get a lot of faith on a limited land and without relying too much on terrain features for adjacent bonuses.
     
  18. KayAU

    KayAU Chieftain

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    I like Japan. I think they used to be underrated, but it seems more people have come to appreciate their abilities over time. My take on each ability:

    • Leader ability - Divine Wind:
    The combat bonus is situational but nice when it applies. It makes it easier to defend your coastline, although Japan doesn't really have any other abilities to make it a coastal civilization.

    The main part of Divine Wind for me is the additional production for three district types. As I understand it this is +100% production for three special districts (Encampment, Holy Site, Theatre Square). This is arguably the best district production bonus in the game, certainly among the best. By comparison, Nubia gets +20% or +40% for all districts, civilizations with a unique district get +100% for that one district, as well as an improved version of the district. It used to be that unique districts didn't count towards the maximum number of districts, but that was nerfed, making Japan's ability even better in comparison.
    • Civilization ability - Meiji Restauration:
    Another good ability, which makes Japan less dependent on terrain to get good adjacencies.
    • Unique unit - Samurai:
    I find it somewhat hard to rate this one. It has the strength of a Knight, at a slightly lower cost. It has to be hard built, but doesn't require resources. It has staying power in combat, but lacks the mobility of units like the Knight or Berserker. Of course, the entire Melee class was buffed when the Commando promotion was enhanced to provide +1 movement point. Samurai with Battlecry and Commando is going to be extremely hard to deal with, as they are fairly mobile, very strong, and will not lose combat strength as they get damaged. If adjacent to the coast, they should be able to easily repel anything attacking them from land. An attacking Berserker or Knight will receive serious damage when attacking them, and then be destroyed or nearly destroyed on the following turn. Ranged units will not be able to weaken Samurai before they are overrun.
    It is a very good unit, but seeing how it has to be hard built, it needs to be.​

    • Unique infrastructure - Electronics Factory:
    It is alright. A little bit cheaper than the standard factory, a little bit more production, a nice culture bonus (which isn't regional) after discovering Electricity. It used to be more powerful back when regional bonuses stacked. Now, it is still alright, but nothing to get overly excited about. It arrives in the mid-game, which is fairly late for a unique infrastructure.​


    Overall, as I said, I like Japan. They have a nice set of bonuses, which don't really play into each other or synergize much. I find them fun to play as.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  19. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    It is +100% production, much stronger than half price, because of the overflow+Magnus chop. 2 trees with Limes and Theater means campus+TS+CH, and still have surplus. If you get Harvest of the Goddess and Jesuit Education, that 2 trees means all buildings in campus or in TS. After that, it was difficult for other Civs to get campus +3, but for Japan that was simple. More special, Japan can get very high CH adjacent bonus for free inquiry. All these conditions make Japan the only possible civ to win SV before Christ in peaceful play.
     
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  20. KayAU

    KayAU Chieftain

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    You are right, it seems, the in game text says it allows you to build those districts in half the time, which corresponds to a +100% bonus. I have updated my post above to reflect this.

    That makes this a very strong bonus.
     

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