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[R&F] Civ of the Week: Spain [Early Bird Special]

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Oct 12, 2018.

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Who's up next week

Poll closed Oct 20, 2018.
  1. England (groan)

    6 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. Korea

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  3. Mapuche

    14 vote(s)
    51.9%
  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    • Leader: Phillip the Second
    • Leader Ability: El Escorial. All units receive +4 CS against Civs with a different Religion. Inquisitors gain +1 Charge, are usually not expected, and are equipped with fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical dedication to the Pope and nice red uniforms.
    • Civ Ability: Treasure Fleet. Okay, deep breath... You get Fleets and Armadas at Mercantilism not Nationalism and Mobilisation, internal trade routes between cities on different continents get +1 Food and +1 Production, and international trade routes to cities on different continents get +6 Gold and Missions give Loyalty as described below.
    • Unique Unit (Civ): Conquistador. Children of the Sun, See your time has just begun, Searching for your ways, through adventures every day; Every day and night, with the Condor in flight, with all your friends in tow, we search for the Cities of Gold ... Ah ahahahaha, wishing for the Cities of Gooooold ... Ah ahahaha Someday we will find the ... er. Sorry. I mean. Unique Melee Unit which replaces the Musket Man (Unlocks at Gunpowder). Melee Strength 55, Movement 2, Maintenance 4. +10 Combat Strength if Religious Unit is in the same tile (including unexpected Inquisitors). Cities Covert to your Religion (if you've founded one) if it captures a city or is adjacent to a City when capture. ... do-do do do do, ah ah ah, do-do do do do Cities of Gold...

    • Unique Infrastructure: Mission (Impossible). Unique Improvement (requires one Builder Charge). Unlocks at Exploration. +2 Faith, +2 Faith on a Foreign Continent, +2 Science if next to a Campus, +2 Science (Cultural Heritage), and (via El Escorial) +2 Loyalty if built on a Foreign Continent and Adjacent to a City Centre. [Can you have more than one per City? Does the Loyalty Stack?]
    • Leader Agenda: Counter Reformer. Likes Civs that are the same Religion as him; dislikes Civs that follow different Religions; also very keen on capturing a young Incan girl and two young boys accompanying her with some very interesting jewellery.
    • Suggested Reading List: This post. Also this post.
    Notes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    Icicle likes this.
  2. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    You can build as many missions as you like, not sure if the loyalty stacks. I'll try to load up my game to even see if the loyalty bonus shows up on the city loyalty screen.

    I'll be traveling as well. I leave tomorrow in fact.

    • Leader Ability: El Escorial. All units receive +4 CS against Civs with a different Religion. Inquisitors gain +1 Charge, are usually not expected, and are equipped with fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical dedication to the Pope and nice red uniforms.
    • The combat bonus is pretty useful all around. The +1 charge isn't particularly useful. As I mention below, combat bonus applies to religious warfare as well.
    • Civ Ability: Treasure Fleet. Okay, deep breath... You get Fleets and Armadas at Mercantilism not Nationalism and Mobilisation, internal trade routes between cities on different continents get +1 Food and +1 Production, and international trade routes to cities on different continents get +6 Gold and Missions give Loyalty as described below.
    • I think I did form one early armada, but my navy wasn't a big impact in my game. The trade route bonuses are pretty useful if you can get a decent number of cities on other continents. Works well with Colonial taxes policy card.
    • Unique Unit (Civ): Conquistador. Children of the Sun, See your time has just begun, Searching for your ways, through adventures every day; Every day and night, with the Condor in flight, with all your friends in tow, we search for the Cities of Gold ... Ah ahahahaha, wishing for the Cities of Gooooold ... Ah ahahaha Someday we will find the ... er. Sorry. I mean. Unique Melee Unit which replaces the Musket Man (Unlocks at Gunpowder). Melee Strength 55, Movement 2, Maintenance 4. +10 Combat Strength if Religious Unit is in the same tile (including unexpected Inquisitors). Cities Covert to your Religion (if you've founded one) if it captures a city or is adjacent to a City when capture. ... do-do do do do, ah ah ah, do-do do do do Cities of Gold...
    • A pretty good unit, I just wish it was faster. It's a slow unit for this stage of the game. At least you don't have to hard build it. You do have to manually move an inquisitor or other religious unit with it which can be a pain.

    • Unique Infrastructure: Mission (Impossible). Unique Improvement (requires one Builder Charge). Unlocks at Exploration. +2 Faith, +2 Faith on a Foreign Continent, +2 Science if next to a Campus, +2 Science (Cultural Heritage), and (via El Escorial) +2 Loyalty if built on a Foreign Continent and Adjacent to a City Centre. [Can you have more than one per City? Does the Loyalty Stack?]
    • Not a bad UI if built on a foreign continent. Makes this one very map dependent. I kind of wish I had made better use out of them, however. The loyalty is so small that it won't help if you are trying to force your cities into continents already occupied. I got lucky and had a lot of tundra in islands to my south that were another continent.
    • Leader Agenda: Counter Reformer. Likes Civs that are the same Religion as him; dislikes Civs that follow different Religions; also very keen on capturing a young Incan girl and two young boys accompanying her with some very interesting jewellery.
    • Good luck satisfying his agenda. Maybe if you don't found a religion and start right next to him.

    Here's my start, already played this game a couple days ago. Went with fractal again after a great game last week. Yeah... that jungle. You have to research bronze working just to get a holy site down for a religion. Or just do it from your second city like I did. I eventually got one in my capital as well. Very tempting to restart, but glad I didn't (see below). I figure this is a true test if they can hack it as a civ.

    Spoiler :



    Finished this game. I really had trouble deciding which victory to pursue. Spain is all over the place. They weren't as bad as I thought they were, but still don't have any focus for any one victory type. The combat bonuses make conquest victory tempting, only problem with that is Conquistadors life span is relatively short before you start seeing enemy infantry. Still if I armied them up, they would have been okay I suppose. Conquistadors are too slow for me to realistically consider this.

    Religious victory is the most obvious one they can do well, but I really didn't want to go religious victory, it's my least favorite victory type. And I'm a builder at heart, I want my cities to grow big, I would have had to put missions everywhere to really push this hard. I had around 10 to 15 missions, but I was not at the top of the faith graph in the end game graphs. Science victory was tempting due to the science bonus of missions when adjacent to campus districts. But Culture victory was the easiest for me this game, so I went with that. Since I had no Russia, Kongo, or Brazil in the game, my tourism came easy, and the threshold for victory was low. My opponents dictated my victory method.

    That said, this is my 3rd fastest cultural victory for my game of week games. Surpassing Indonesia from a couple weeks ago. Only Kongo and Pericles was faster. But of course the lack of the big 3 culture civs in the game helped me there. Still, I did surprisingly well with Philip. I can't really say he's bad, he's just not good at anything. I'll give him a solid C. Average rating.

    I did conquer some cities with my conquistadors to see how well they worked. No complaints. They are powerful as expected. I lost 3 alliances from the warmongering penalty, but managed to get 2 back before the end of the game. Gilgabro and Alexander were still my friends. Some notes below about this:

    Every single city you conquer with a conquistador and religious unit resulting in a religion switch will give you +3 era score. Bug perhaps? It's very easy to rack up era score this way.

    Can't combine inquisitor with conquistador as we know, have to manually move them with the conquistador. This is more of a convenience issue. Insta converting cities is pretty cool, but that's just a convenience issue as well.

    Getting decent cities on other continents is the challenging thing about Spain. I did manage to get quite a few cities, but they weren't that great. Many were stuck in tundra or ice. Still I had enough to run colonial taxes which is a pretty cool economic card. Spain can pull in the money. I would include them with the better money making civs in the game such as Egypt, Cree, Poland, and Persia, though at the bottom of that list, as those civs I believe I made more money with.

    Not a bad civ, they just don't fit my playstyle very well. I was impressed they did as well as they did this game. I may play them again some day and just focus purely on making money. If only there were an economic victory in this game.

    Just some pictures of the conquistador in action. You can see the combat bonus in the bottom right.
    Spoiler :


    And the era score bonus for taking a city. Like I said, I got this for every single city I took. Seems like maybe a bug
    Spoiler :


    And a pic showing the combat bonus against civs with another religion. I did check after I finished the game, and this applies to apostles/religious units as well. To be expected as all combat bonuses apply to religious combat.
    Spoiler :


    Final screenshot. My third fastest cultural victory.
    Spoiler :
     

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  3. Human Crouton

    Human Crouton Chieftain

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    I swear that Spain has a start bias that gives it the worst spot on the map.
     
  4. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Chieftain

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    As with Georgia, Spain has some interesting abilities on paper. In practice, they are quite lacking.
     
  5. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    I checked this out. Doesn't look like it stacks. I get +3 loyalty from other effects before I put the 2nd mission down with my builder, and after I put the 2nd mission down with my builder. Though I'm not exactly sure why I'm getting +3 loyalty from other effects instead of +2. Any ideas?

    Spoiler :


    Unless that value is found somewhere else. Not sure where that would be. I have cultural alliance with surfer Alex, but that shouldn't matter.

    edit: when I look at a city on a foreign continent without a mission next to city center loyalty from other effects is +1. So it is showing up under other effects and confirmed it doesn't stack.
     
  6. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I would disagree, only because Georgia's abilities are almost all nearly neutral to bad. The Khevsur is nearly a negative UU (albeit slightly better than it was), renaissance walls are near useless, etc.
     
  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

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    I like Spain.
    Like Poland they benefit from having a religion but seem well suited to going for a domination victory. The Conquistador is my favourite UU I think.
    Missions are a pretty decent UI. Build them on grassland next to a campus and they give 2 :food: 2:science: 2:religion: or better which is decent.
    Biggest drawbacks are they are a bit map dependent and they are a slow starter, not much to help them early on.
     
  8. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Chieftain

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    Another disadvantage to Spain is that despite being religiously oriented, it gets no bonuses to founding a religion (like Georgia).
     
  9. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    I’ve become something of a Spain protagonist after recently playing them a few times. I think that’s part of the way the civ is balanced/designed. You have to suffer early on for a payout in the mid & late game. Kind of like the allure of religion in the real world, suffering in the present for a payout in the life to come. If you like running back to back golden ages, the payout with Spain is HUGE! As the conquistador insta-converts enemy cities to Spain’s religion if it is adjacent to the city when it falls, and that gets you +3 era score, you will reach a golden age nirvana of sorts. In order to get into this eternal golden age heaven, you must suffer in the early game. Here's my take from the 2nd game I played...
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ain-utilizing-religion-for-domination.637190/
     
  10. Nigel_Tufnel2

    Nigel_Tufnel2 Chieftain

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    I agree with BH above - more importantly for me, Conquistadors are FUN! Ruthlessly efficient, etc.
     
  11. kingofsealand

    kingofsealand Chieftain

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    I was underwhelmed by Spain until one lucky map. That language about continents in the trade bonus is key.

    If your capital starts near the border of a continent, you will likely have a number of nearby city states paying great returns via trade from the earliest points in the game. The extra cash youll reel in from these easy to defend routes helps even the playing field. The internal buff and religious uniques are nice also, but I think the civ is far more limited starting in the middle of a continent with no easy buffed trade partners.
     
  12. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Of course Spain also founded Catholicism in the real world. ;) This thought actually caused me to reread the bonuses again. It doesn't say you have to have a founded religion (although you won't get the auto convert and the era score for that convert). The bonuses come with "different" religion. So in theory, you could make it work if you had a friendly AI who you don't intend on attacking spread their religion to you. And then you spread it to the rest of your cities. It's really hard to make that work, however. It's generally easier to found your own.

    What would be nice is a diplomatic option to ask an AI to spread their religion to you. Otherwise waiting for them to get enough faith to get an apostle over to you can take a while. And it may not happen in time for conquistadors.

    It's just funny to think of these European religious civs who never founded their own religion in the real world, although the game considers Protestantism its own religion.

    edit: although I'm not sure if adopting someone else's religion counts as your religion for the purposes of the combat bonus. Hmm. That's the problem with these mechanics. Spain never founded their own religion in real life.
     
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  13. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Only one of Spain's bonuses is tied to being the founder of a religion (the conversion flip on capture). For the others, all Spain needs is to have a religion, which it can get by the time those bonuses come into play, regardless of whether it founded one or not.

    As has been pointed out elsewhere, getting someone else's religion can often be much better than founding one yourself. It frees up a lot of Faith for use in other ways. That's especially good for Spain with its Missions.

    Plus not founding your own religion makes it simpler to flip to a new religion anytime you get attacked or go to war. If you use Inquistors to keep your empire roughly 50/50 between two religions, you can quickly flip to whichever one gives you +4 against your current enemy.
     
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  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    My best strategy as Spain is

    Spoiler :
    Hit alt-f4


    They're very weak; I'd say they're a weaker version of England and that's just pretty sad, but it's not even just that. They're also incredibly boring because just like England, the arbitrary continent leads to feast or famine, or in Spain's case, getting for famine. Truth be told, I've had more fun games with civs like Georgia and Egypt. The religious bonus is nice because you don't actually need to found a religion-- in fact nothing Spain has requires that and thus you can get it passively. Which is also out of your control and incredibly boring. There's also a bizzare counter synergy where spreading your religion makes you less effective in combat and that means that religious victory is actually not Spain's thing but rather religious led conquest victory-- actually quite fitting.

    Anyhow, the rest I wrote recently on Reddit, so....

    https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/9jve35/civ_of_the_week_spain/e6uypza/
     
  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Archon_Wing Your Reddit post is really good. I’ve linked to it in the OP. I completely agree about the counter synergy.

    Spain doesn’t need to found a Religion, but it is at a disadvantage of sorts if it doesn’t. e.g. Spain’s autoconvert power is very powerful given the era boost (no idea if that’s intentional or a bug though) and it also provides a loyalty bonus which is helpful if you’re conquering. Not getting those perks is a drag. Inquisitors are also a bit naff if you don’t have your own religion.

    I also don’t like all these European Civs founding Religions. Players should be able to adopt other Civ’s Religions. The game is clearly designed with this in mind - e.g. follower beliefs and worship buildings - but it needs a bit more of a push in that direction.

    Overall, Spain has got better in RnF with the buffs to a Religion and Faith. They’ll maybe get better if FXS do a bit more with Religion, and if they ever buff “colonialism”.

    ...although the loyalty from Missions seem silly. So many conditions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, could bring back the Apostolic palace in Civ 4. Basically the world has to all follow a religion but then they also have to vote you in as religious leader, and you didn't have to be the founder.

    Of course, Civ 4's way of counting the whole world founding a religion was bad, because it just checked to see if the religion is present at all in a civ, meaning you could win just by spreading religion to 1 city per civ besides your own (you needed a majority religion to win. That resulted in the bizzare situation where you would build the Apolstic Palace under a religion nobody follows, spread a little to everyone else, switch away from that religion to one everyone likes, and then have a minority elect you to be the leader of some cult basically.

    But naturally Civ 6 already has a more sensible system in determining if a civ has been converted already. So combine the two and you might have something workable for non-founders. Of course the problem lies with diplomatic victory in general-- it would only matter in terms of AI since voting for you means losing the game....
     
  17. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Getting rid of founding a religion could be a nice change. That would free up religion to be part of the diplomacy game (better or worse relations) and cultural game (more or less tourism impact). If each religion came with certain bonuses, you might seek out and spread the one that works best for you, and have policies that provide bonuses to either having a consistent religion across your empire or diverse religious beliefs. Each religion could also have bonuses related to being the leading civ for that religion, which could cause inter-religion struggles for leadership, and bonuses to that leader for spreading the religion.
     
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I really wish we didn't have Religious Victory, and then Religion was more squarely rolled into Diplomacy and Loyalty. It would give the whole thing a lot more room to breath, because at the moment Religion has to be very carefully balanced against other victory types and therefore other mechanics.

    I honestly think the basics are there with Religion. It's a bit like Social Policies in Civ 5, allowing you to customise your Civ, particularly around what yields your population generates and what your Holy Sites ultimately "do". The "kind of war" tactical approach to Religion is clearly not the only way Religion could have been handled, but I don't think it's actually a bad approach. It could maybe be a bit more asymmetrical - it's a bit weird everyone has the same units and makes Religious combat a little boring tactically - but yeah, it's okay. But I think it would be hard to really deepen and improve Religion so long as you have a separate RV.

    My dream is that we get a new Diplomatic Victory, and FXS use this as an excuse to get rid of Religious Victory. Man, they could even use it as an excuse to get rid of Cultural Victory, and roll that into Diplomatic Victory as well. I mean, that's what's so good about Culture Victory at the moment, it's a success condition which really does have multiple strats for victory which all hinge on different strengths - e.g. you can get their through Religion, Science and Production, Gold, Domination, and, you know, Culture. If you could take the same approach with a "Diplomatic Victory", but rolling in Religion (properly) and Culture (esp Loyalty), that would be awesome. You'd still have Science Victories and Dom Victories as alternatives. Pretty cool.

    But, hey. I can't see FXS doing any of that this time around. And whatever is planned for the expansion is locked in by now. My more realistic hope is just that it's made a little more attractive to "adopt" someone else's Religion, because that would really help out Civs like Spain.
     
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  19. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I do not think Spain is weak. They have a good unit and very nice synergy. Their UI creates faith which they can use for conquest as well as loyalty. Their abilities insure golden ages so you can use the faith for more builder and more trade. The extra loyalty you get for expanding with faith is very helpful. For expansion they are fun and powerful. I feel that some of the points you guys are making are because you do not really play expansion so on paper maybe it looks weak but they are unstoppable if they get a foothold. Yes, they are not the astecs but
     
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  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Well, I go backwards and forward on this a bit, but overall I don’t think Spain are weak. It’s more I think they sit right in the middle of multiple gaps in the mechanics.

    First, Religion. If Spain doesn’t found a religion then their abilities are just not as good if they don’t found their own Religion (eg additional inquisitor charges and auto convert cities) and they miss out on key synergies (eg loyalty for converted cities). I don’t think they need a buff to getting a Religion. And I don’t think their abilities really need to be changed. It’s just that Religion needs to be more useful even when you haven’t founded one.

    Second, Colonial Cities. Cities in foreign continents just aren’t worth the effort, which is not great for a Civ like Spain that’s all about mid game conquest on foreign shores.

    Third, Naval. Basically, Naval and Sea Trade are just a bit weak overall.

    I don’t think any of these things make Spain weak, or even bad. But they do make them feel a bit lame.

    I do like though how Spain sort of gets two unique units - it’s Musketmen and also Naval Units (in that it can make the Fleets and Armadas earlier). It’s interesting that a few other Naval Civs get double unique units too, one Naval and one Land - eg. Norway, England. Dutch and Indonesia though just get Naval units.
     

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