Civ-specific Great People

[AbsintheRed]

This is another small cosmetic change what would IMO seriously improve the overall "feel" of the mod

So, let's start collecting those GPs
A few guidelines:
It's not a real problem if a person is a little over the timeframe of the mod
It is still much better to have artists and engineers from the 19th century than from another nation.
Of course earlier GPs are preferred whereever it is possible

Great Prophet: Besides the actual prophets, the saints can be also added here. Most great propets are used as saints in RFCE anyway
Great Artist: This should be the easiest - writers, court historians, painters, musicians, etc.
Great Scientist: Also pretty easy to find at least 6-8 for each civ
Great Engineer: As I mentioned, it's not a problem if they are after the timeframe of the mod
Great Merchant: Famous explorers should also go here. They are close enough in most cases, and it's already handled this way in RFCE.
Great General: Again, this won't be a problem for any of the civs
Great Spy: Probably this will be the hardest. We can stick with generic names for this type if it's too hard

If someone is already represented as a leader or anything else in the mod, we shouldn't use him/her here
Also, if a person is suitable for more GP types, or for more civs, I will put them in all possible places for now.
We can decide later where is he/she most suitable or most needed

Please post all your suggestions, I will update the next post constantly
If we have a good base of GPs for all civs, then we can start implementing them ,)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Put together a quick first draft for Hungary:

Spoiler :

Prophet: Szent Imre, Szent Margit, Szent László
Artist: Csontvári-Kosztka Tivadar, Munkácsy Mihály, Liszt Ferenc, Bartók Béla
Scientist: Eötvös Lóránd, Bolyai János
Merchant: Kőrösi Csoma Sándor, Julianus barát
Engineer: Hild József, Steindl Imre
General: Árpád, Hunyadi János, Zrínyi Miklós, Rákóczi Ferenc, Bethlen Gábor, Kinizsi Pál, Báthory István, Teleki Mihály
Spy: Búvár Kund

 

[yogiebere]

I don't know about this, I think a general GP for each area (Slavs, Germanics, Romantics, Arabs) could work, but this starts to get into the nitty gritty. I really doubt you can find 3 norse great prophets, or 3 genoan great engineers. I think programmers time should be spent elsewhere.

 

[ezzlar]

Well, everyone could contribute here leaving the programmers doing other stuff. But I agree with the "area" idea. A famous GP was often international (or could have been if history was different).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Actually this is a really small thing programming-wise, and I'm willing to spend my modding time on this anyway
For Norse I'm sure we can find 4-5 danish or norwegian saints, and we can use generic italian GP lists for both Genoa and Venice
Both solutions are way better than the current one.

Having said that I can also live with ethnic great people (slavs, germanics, etc.), but IMO we don't have to stop there...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well, everyone could contribute here leaving the programmers doing other stuff. But I agree with the "area" idea. A famous GP was often international (or could have been if history was different).

Yep, that was my plan
I only started the thread, all the name research is left to the players/playtesters (and everyone else willing to help of course)
If all of the lists seems nice and more or less complete, I will implement the changes

 

[Leoreth]

Two points on your Hungarian great people:

1. You should consider listing the names in an English fashion ("first name" first, family name after) other than the usual Hungarian way. This seems to be standard in English if you look at how names are listed in wikipedia for example.
2. I'd advise against using people from too late of the timeframe. Didn't check everyone but right now you have an architect from after 1800 (shouldn't be in anyway) and one who lived on the verge of that century. With Hungary spawning in 1000 AD, having your first Great Engineer be a classicist architect would look weird.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Two points on your Hungarian great people:

1. You should consider listing the names in an English fashion ("first name" first, family name after) other than the usual Hungarian way. This seems to be standard in English if you look at how names are listed in wikipedia for example.
2. I'd advise against using people from too late of the timeframe. Didn't check everyone but right now you have an architect from after 1800 (shouldn't be in anyway) and one who lived on the verge of that century. With Hungary spawning in 1000 AD, having your first Great Engineer be a classicist architect would look weird.

1. Yep, that's the plan. That was just my quick draft, eventually all civs' GPs should be in English fashion, with using english vowels only.

2. Again, I just made that list in 2 mins; whoever first popped in my mind.
Btw all the artists are also out of the timeframe right now.
Anyway, I agree with you, we should use as early GPs as possible
But if there are no good medieval GPs for a civ, I still prefer to have a 19th century GP than using a foreign or generic one...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Didn't check everyone but right now you have an architect from after 1800 (shouldn't be in anyway) and one who lived on the verge of that century. With Hungary spawning in 1000 AD, having your first Great Engineer be a classicist architect would look weird.

Just checked, and you will love this:
Both Imre Steindl and Jozsef Hild are already in RFCE as generic great engineers

PS: Actually all the current generic lists are totally off. Many typos, factual errors, etc...
For example Voltaire, Kant, Petrarca, Matthias Corvinus can appear as great prophets, Gustav Vasa, Johan de Witt as scientists, Francis Bacon, Miklos Zrinyi as spies

 

[3Miro]

Do you intend to make it so that whenever a Great Person spawns for say England, then they will receive a name from an English specific list. Then same for all other nations?

I am curious how would you implement that? I don't know where the Great People names code is (Python or C++).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Do you intend to make it so that whenever a Great Person spawns for say England, then they will receive a name from an English specific list. Then same for all other nations?

I am curious how would you implement that? I don't know where the Great People names code is (Python or C++).

I saw it in one of the mods a few months ago, right now I don't recall exactly where.
I do remember it doesn't seemed that hard.
Will check exactly how can this be implemented (and how hard it is), maybe I'm mistaken after all...

PS: ~10 posts, but didn't get any GP suggestions yet

 

[3Miro]

PS: ~10 posts, but didn't get any GP suggestions yet

We already have the GP list, they are just not split by nations.

 

[AbsintheRed]

We already have the GP list, they are just not split by nations.

Umm no, those lists are not good enough
Have you checked them recently?
And we only have 30-40 GPs / type. That's less than 2 per civ

 

[3Miro]

Umm no, those lists are not good enough
Have you checked them recently?
And we only have 30-40 GPs / type. That's less than 2 per civ

How often do you get 3 or more GP of the same type per nation.

It is fine if we can come up with more, but don't hold your breath.

 

[Leoreth]

I've implemented it in DoC with a Python rename method triggered by onGreatPersonBorn out of laziness.

It's actually easier and more trouble-free to do it like SoI and make unique units of the GP for each civilization and then use the usual name list for each of them.

 

[3Miro]

I've implemented it in DoC with a Python rename method triggered by onGreatPersonBorn out of laziness.

It's actually easier and more trouble-free to do it like SoI and make unique units of the GP for each civilization and then use the usual name list for each of them.

Note that many of the Python functions of BtS have been disabled for RFC and RFCE. I will have to double-check on this one.

The alternative of Civ specific units is fine too. It takes a lot more XML coding, but no Python or whatsoever.

 

[AbsintheRed]

DoC is also a modmod for RFC
Btw I was thinking about an only XML solution when I first mentioned civ-specific great people, just wasn't sure I remembered correctly and it really is possible
Anyway, it shouldn't be hard either way

 

[civ_king]

Saints Cyril and Methodius
Roger Bacon
Joan of Arc
Robert Grosseteste
Albert Magnus
Bede
John of God

 

[AbsintheRed]

 

[dragodon64]

I think grouping together some regions would be a good idea for GPs. Like Spain+Portugal(+Aragon), or Venice+Genoa(+Lombardy). Because frankly, I don't foresee a ton of GPs from the smaller countries.

How's this for a rough draft of regional divisions:

England(+Scotland)
France+Burgundy
Germany+Austria(+Prussia)
Spain+Portugal(+Aragon)
Venice+Genoa(+Lombardy)
Bulgaria(+Serbia)
Muscovy+Kiev(+Novgorod)
Norway+Sweden(+Denmark)
Ottomans(+Seljuqs+Crimea?)
Arabia(+Egypt)
Cordoba(+Morocco+Tunisia?)
Poland(+Bohemia?)
Byzantium

Netherlands, Hungary, and Lithuania are hard ones.
Would it be very wrong to group the Dutch into the other continental West-Germanic types? It's the smallest (and the latest) country on the map, so I don't want them by themselves.
I have no idea what to do with Hungary and Lithuania, as both of them are linguistically isolated in the game. Hungary is probably big enough to provide for a lot of great people, but I'm not sure about Lithuania.

I also put some question marks for
Crimea- Steppe Turks aren't that similar to Anatolian Turks, but are they close enough?
Tunisia- not sure if medieval Tunisians should be grouped with eastern Arabs or western Berbers.
Bohemia- I know Czechs are Slavic, but wasn't Bohemia a German dominated society?