Civ Terraforming

[Al Capwn]

Here's an idea that I haven't seen yet suggested on the forums: The ability to terraform land once certain technologies are discovered.

The only things I was thinking should be available would be to either create hills from plains/grasslands, create grasslands/plains from hills, or creating a freshwater lake. In modern society these things are being done frequently and I think that it would be a cool idea to be able to implement it into the game. I was thinking that it should require Industrialism (the advent of heavy machinery required to undertake such projects) and then it would take a number of turns for workers to terraform the land. By restricting it to only changing hills to flatlands and vice versa and adding freshwater lakes it would be a powerful tool but not game-breaking IMO.

The benefits would be that you could change the specialty of a particular city, e.g. when you have a city surrounded by hills that can never grow past size 12, or a flatlands city that gets very little production, you can modify the landscape to create better cities. The ability to create freshwater lakes would also solve the health problems of cities not originally planted next to the few rivers and lakes that were created on the map.

To solve the possible problem of overuse or abuse of this perhaps a unique unit (big bulldozer or crane or steam shovel) could be implemented. Each civ gets 1 (or a limited number depending on map size) of these units to terraform land with.

The only big problem I see would be how to get the AI to properly implement terraforming.

(I realize that by using WB you can "terraform" as much as you like but I would like to see an option to terraform the land without having to go into WB)

Thoughts?

 

[GeezerGamer]

Personally, I would like to see a few "near future" techs added (with in game effects) in place of the generic future techs that do nothing, but terraforming goes way beyond the near future and into SMAC...

 

[nanomage]

i think it's unrealistic.
of course you can create a hill by merely placing a huge heap of sand or something else, but what would be its industrial value? it's nothing to be mined there.
you can dig away a mountain, but what will be acquired land good for?
fresh water lake is an only realistic option i think but only if created at river-adjanced tiles, which no player would willingly sacrifice.

 

[Scoottr]

In previous civs you could plant trees

 

[nanomage]

yes, and in civ2 you could actually terraform, too
but even planting trees is unrealistic, at least in the way it was implemented in c3
even a million workers cannot grow an industrially useful forest in 1 year.
i think the way it is in realty is well represented in cIV, the greatest terraforming enterprise beeing dutch building dikes

 

[Cutlass]

I liked planting trees. I miss that feature. I liked to fill all the unused tiles with forests.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I liked planting trees. I miss that feature. I liked to fill all the unused tiles with forests.

Yes, and the forests would give you a health bonus. Very useful indeed.

 

[bestbrian]

Yes, and the forests would give you a health bonus. Very useful indeed.

Yes, it would be. The biggest thing I miss, though, from Civ II style terraforming was the ability to transfrom desers into plains and grassland.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, for replanting forests, you can make it grow like cottages. So, you have a "Seed Forest" command, which will take 5 or 10 turns to grow into a real forest.

Maybe they don't need ways to terraform, but if you added on some future-techy desert improvements (greenhouse for a food bonus, solar shade for commerce?), that'd make them useful late-game.

Making a freshwater lake from a river tile would be interesting, but again, not overly useful. And if not river adjacent, then making a freshwater lake in the middle of the sahara makes little sense.

The other option for terraforming I wouldn't mind seeing would be a dam improvement, to divert a river. That would certainly be useful.

 

[Al Capwn]

yes, and in civ2 you could actually terraform, too
but even planting trees is unrealistic, at least in the way it was implemented in c3
even a million workers cannot grow an industrially useful forest in 1 year.
i think the way it is in realty is well represented in cIV, the greatest terraforming enterprise beeing dutch building dikes

If the History channel's show "Axemen", which is about modern-day lumberjacks, is at all accurate then it is possible to grow industrially useful forests in a matter of 5-10 years (roughly 1 civ turn in industrial era). I think that would be far too easily exploitable however and I like the idea of the Lumbermill improvement for more realism.

Well, for replanting forests, you can make it grow like cottages. So, you have a "Seed Forest" command, which will take 5 or 10 turns to grow into a real forest.

Maybe they don't need ways to terraform, but if you added on some future-techy desert improvements (greenhouse for a food bonus, solar shade for commerce?), that'd make them useful late-game.

Now that's a great idea! I would love to see some later-game improvements that can turn useless deserts (and maybe tundras too) into an even somewhat useful tile.

Making a freshwater lake from a river tile would be interesting, but again, not overly useful. And if not river adjacent, then making a freshwater lake in the middle of the sahara makes little sense.

The other option for terraforming I wouldn't mind seeing would be a dam improvement, to divert a river. That would certainly be useful.

Man-made lakes that are not next to rivers are all over the place. The concept is relatively simple: Dig a hole down to water table, let hole fill with water, dump sand into hole to prevent water from seeping back down. The only reason this wasn't done before the steam age is because it was too labor intensive. The state of Arizona in the US is going from an arid to humid climate due to all the man-made lakes and pools.

i think it's unrealistic.
of course you can create a hill by merely placing a huge heap of sand or something else, but what would be its industrial value? it's nothing to be mined there.
you can dig away a mountain, but what will be acquired land good for?
fresh water lake is an only realistic option i think but only if created at river-adjanced tiles, which no player would willingly sacrifice.

Again, I know of hundreds of lakes that are NOT connected to rivers (I grew up in the land of 10,000 lakes...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lake there). I think it would be perfectly feasible to see man-made lakes in the game.

 

[turingmachine]

Quite a few BTS mods have been made that have terraforming abilities:

tsentom1's Eden Project and Jukkasjärvi Ice Hotel wonders as well as his Andromeda Strain unit all do it to different extents, but there's enough python code between them to really copy and terraform any way you want.

Thomas' War has the ability for workers to plant forests at the end of the game as well as an Apocalypse project the degrades the terrain of the whole map. It also has new terrain features tied to events so floods appear on the map for floods events, as well as storms, blizzards, volcanoes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc..

The_J's Pioneertank has a hill making ability. His Planetbuster makes lakes/oceans/water.

Fall from Heaven 2 has a project that makes the whole map wintery with snow and ice and tundra tiles.

 

[mechaerik]

The Greenmod lets you make forests, but its old and i doubt theres a BtS version (or even a warlords one.)

 

[nanomage]

If the History channel's show "Axemen", which is about modern-day lumberjacks, is at all accurate then it is possible to grow industrially useful forests in a matter of 5-10 years (roughly 1 civ turn in industrial era). I think that would be far too easily exploitable however and I like the idea of the Lumbermill improvement for more realism.

It is not industrial era now, when these lumberjacks are existent. forest seed growing to something useful in, say, 10 turns scaling with speed looks sound though.

Again, I know of hundreds of lakes that are NOT connected to rivers (I grew up in the land of 10,000 lakes...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lake there). I think it would be perfectly feasible to see man-made lakes in the game

.

Do not forget a lake has to be something like 50x50 kilometres to correspond to 1 tile even on a huge map (i believe they are 256x256 tiles, but i may be wrong)
It's still tens kilometres even if so.
I know not a single fresh-water lake not fed by rivers to achieve such great size, to say nothing about non-river-adjanced lakes dug by humans. I maybe wrong though, i'm no geograph.

 

[Cutlass]

I always thought a canal improvement was always called for. And to be able to tunnel or bridge 1 tile of water.

 

[turingmachine]

I always thought a canal improvement was always called for. And to be able to tunnel or bridge 1 tile of water.

But you can make two tile canals already. Forts let you move water units over land as long as the fort is next to water. So you can make two tile canals by making forts.

 

[nanomage]

Well, canals are essentially present in cIV - they are forts.
and bridging/tunneling 1 tile of water is still bridging/tunneling like 50 kilometres of water even on a huge map.
Yes there are tunnels under La-Manche (sorry if i misspell) and long-long railroad tunnels in Japan, but can you move military units through them?
(i believe it's what you intend to use these bridges/tunnels for in cIV)

 

[Roller123]

I dont think terraforming would suit civ4 well. land improvement in civ4 is pretty simple and terraforming could be used for OP bordering benefits. All grassland GP farm, all grassland money city, all grassland science city. Besides i always thought that it was kinda unrealistic the way it was implemented in SMAC. Sink Panama or something. Common.

What i would like to see is replantable forests. It would be fine if they wouldnt give health or minerals if chopped. This way the balance is maintained, and we keep the production tiles and aesthetically good looking empire.

 

[Cutlass]

But you can make two tile canals already. Forts let you move water units over land as long as the fort is next to water. So you can make two tile canals by making forts.

Yes, but they are not what I am looking for. They do no allow a city connected to the ocean to build ships, and they prevent other improvements of the tiles. A canal would be like a road for ships. And he tiles could still have economic improvements. And they could be longer than 2 tiles. In WWII the US built submarines in Wisconsin.

For the tunnels (or bridges), the Channel Tunnel could certainly move military units. As could the Golden Gate Bridge. It would be a late tech, but it's doable. Or maybe build a ferry system, that would still be quicker than transports.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Do not forget a lake has to be something like 50x50 kilometres to correspond to 1 tile even on a huge map (i believe they are 256x256 tiles, but i may be wrong)
It's still tens kilometres even if so.
I know not a single fresh-water lake not fed by rivers to achieve such great size, to say nothing about non-river-adjanced lakes dug by humans. I maybe wrong though, i'm no geograph.

Well, I always hate the tile comparisons, because movements prove that inadequate. A hundred years to move 50 km? Are you kidding me? Hunter/Gatherers might have travelled 50 km per month!

Anyhow, yes, most man made lakes need to have a river to feed them. But I know of quite a few (Mark Twain Lake and Lake of the Ozarks, I used to live in Missouri) which are fed by small tributaries, which simply aren't present in CIV.

Edit-Now that I think about it, maybe after Civil Service, you'd be able to have a man-made lake if it's next to an irrigated tile. Then again, CS seems too early to be making a man made lake, so I don't know...

 

[royal62184]

If they implement the grow forest option, all the worker does is plant the seeds and it should take 10-30 turns to grow fully after the worker is done.