Civ V - Beta 3

[Harrumph]

Kamino

Judging by the timeline, except for as you said if getting lucky with GE from CS, not many turns that could be shaved off that time (still you built it in only 7 turns during GA ). Especially get a map like that, gold, marble, gems, wine... And the pop huts, as you admit it is also some luck there.

Very impressed by your incredibly efficient use of GS.

 

[KingMorgan]

Improved to T126.

 

[erajah]

You can but it just reduces the turns (~42 to 15 for me). It won't build it in one turn.


Oh and I VERY much appreciate the detailed walkthrough Kamino. Too often I follow the pro guidance but can't tell if my timing is on track. This helps a lot.

Great Engineers give you a certain # of hammers based on your city size. On normal speed it's 300 + (Population * 30) -- note quite sure what it is for quick speed. Another reason to grow your cap as large as possible!

 

[Igmod]

Great Engineers give you a certain # of hammers based on your city size. On normal speed it's 300 + (Population * 30) -- note quite sure what it is for quick speed. Another reason to grow your cap as large as possible!

Cool! Didn't know that. Thanks!

 

[Harrumph]

Turn 137 - 1470

Alot of things going for this one, quite some lucky breaks (good CS missions, popped 2 (!) GE from CS (used for Chichen Itza and UN)). In the end I think it was the delay for my 3rd-4th city that broke it (was hard to find good spot for 3rd city, settled it far away to get gems for a CS mission and happiness).

Perhaps I even built too many wonders in the beginning (GL, Stoneh, Oracle), delaying my first settler a bit. (this was without marble btw)

T85 : 317 beakers/t
T86 : [Sci Theory]

That mid game of yours is what amazes me, I was 15-20 turns behind at this point.

Quick games are real fun imo.

 

[Kamino]

I have added the "declare war after gold vs anything per turn trade" strategy, I meant exploit . I did a little better with it.

And I was lucky to get a GE from Educated Elite. UN was achieved in 4 turns despite no coal and no alu.

On the other side, I was short by 3 turns for <<Glib>> and badly lost 5 building turns in the race. I got <<Stonehenge>> but not <<Oracle>>. I got <<Hagia>> too but don't remember when.

T38 for (Education) by GS1
T57 for (Acoustics) by GS2
T60 for **golden age** from SP5 {Rationalism}
T66 for SP6 {Secularism}
T71 for **golden age** from hapiness
T73 for SP7 {Educated Elite}
T78 for (Sci Theory) by GS3
T81 for **golden age** from GG warmongering
T96 for <<Porcelain Tower>>
T98 for all pre-globalization techs thanks to GS4, GS5, GS6 and SP9 {Sci Revolution}
T99 for <<Oxford>>
T101 for **golden age** from GG edu elite
T103 for <<UN>>
T112 win with all CS allied (too easy )

A combo tip : conquer an AI1(Dumb)'s city (for loot) and sell it (instead of razing/suffering unhapiness) to AI2(Dumber) for cash, then declare war to AI2 and conquer city again (loot again) and sell it to... Well ! Well ! Well !

 

[erajah]

A combo tip : conquer an AI1(Dumb)'s city (for loot) and sell it (instead of razing/suffering unhapiness) to AI2(Dumber) for cash, then declare war to AI2 and conquer city again (loot again) and sell it to... Well ! Well ! Well !

I thought selling cities was considered an exploit. If it's not, someone should try this strategy with Askia for insane amounts of cash.

Also, I've been too busy to give this a try. Could someone explain how the UN works, I don't get why your victory isn't the turn after the UN is built -- how often are the elections run? Or were you just limited by gold?

 

[sanabas]

First election is 10 turns after you build the UN.

 

[Kamino]

I thought selling cities was considered an exploit. If it's not, someone should try this strategy with Askia for insane amounts of cash.

I did it just for fun. The true fact is I was able to pump all the AI cash only with trade exploits. The limit was only their ability to generate cash.

All my game is based on exploits :

• maritime CS ridiculous food output +50% Siam UA
• 'open borders for 50g' trade
• 'what you want per turn vs all your cash' trade then war
• 'open border again for 43g' trade when AI ask for peace a few turns after
• instant buy of buildings
• instant buy of CS relationship
• stupid AI at handling 1upt warfare

Launching a CiV game is an exploit.

The gameplay is really unbalanced. Did Firaxis have beta-testers ?

 

[Sumorex]

Nice twist to early warmongering! Hadn't though of just selling that city, taking it again, selling it again HA!

 

[Methos]

I thought selling cities was considered an exploit. If it's not, someone should try this strategy with Askia for insane amounts of cash.

The exploit was in culture games, where the player saved up his/her SP's and then sold off several (a bunch) of cities in order to lower the cost to purchase policies.

 

[Sumorex]

Turn 121, 1220 AD

My game was pretty simliar to Kamino's earlier game except I got the Great Library.

Got two tech... archery and bronze working I believe
At least 1 population hut

Could have easily shaved 10 turns off this game by paying closer attention to my micro. Twice I totally screwed up science micro which meant losing a full turn of research because I was 4 research and 2 research short... just tired play.

Hand picking opponents would make this easier also. Oda never seems to want my open borders early and Monty made me decide to not to do an early rush. I wish there was an easier way to regenerate maps with hand picked opponents.

I explored poorly. It was really really late in the game by the time I found the last few CS's. And the CS's I did have felt like they had no happiness resources. I struggled most of the game looking for happiness.

I went with a late GA from Happiness... went the last 20 or so turns in a GA. Probably would have been better to burn that earlier to get more infrastructure in place.

I ran the Educated Elite gambit and got 1 Artist and 2 Merchants for my trouble. Meh.

I ran 4 cities until I needed Coal, and dropped my 5th city on top of it. Last few turns I dropped some more cities for giggles. I dunno if my game would have been better taking out an early capital. I was next to Monty and Darius. Monty can be pesky with his Jags if you're using warriors to rush. Darius was a great trading partner all game.

Definitely will try this again with Siam to try to shave more turns off because I think with some luck and perfect play a sub 100 turn win is possible. I was at 121 turns with at least 10 turns wasted on mistakes with research, my Educated Elite people were 100% worthless which could have been another 10 turns if it had been Scientist x2 and Engineer x1.

Siam is so powerful for a UN win, I wonder what the quickest time will be for any other leader.

 

[KingMorgan]

what you want per turn vs all your cash' trade then war

This is the only real exploit, the rest are 'game mechanics'

Did Firaxis have beta-testers ?

There is a list of people in a frankistien group, plenty of civ4 veterans, guess their feedback was ignored. My guess is all the comestic fixes took priority with gameplay issues being relagated to being updated on the fly after release.

 

[boehj]

These times blow my mind.

 

[Kamino]

Good game, Sumorex.

Hand picking opponents would make this easier also. Oda never seems to want my open borders early and Monty made me decide to not to do an early rush.

I agree. Picking those who make the most cash and love to trade would be a big improvement.

I wish there was an easier way to regenerate maps with hand picked opponents.

Maybe with a mod that remove other AIs ?

I explored poorly. It was really really late in the game by the time I found the last few CS's. And the CS's I did have felt like they had no happiness resources. I struggled most of the game looking for happiness.

Happiness is critical. Faster cash means faster maritime CS alliances means faster growth means sooner happiness problems.

Closest CS are a good choice because you can protect their resources from barbs.

Pearls and whales are sometimes forgotten by CS. Better choose land resources. I am not sure, but it looks like a CS could not have more that one luxury resource and all combined CS are far from gathering all luxury resources. Does anybody have a knowledge of firaxis design on the second point ?

I ran the Educated Elite gambit and got 1 Artist and 2 Merchants for my trouble. Meh.

Couldn't be worse.

I ran 4 cities until I needed Coal, and dropped my 5th city on top of it.

Very good idea to have a couple of settlers to jump on coal/alu.

It triggers another one in my mind : put a settler in the middle of the sea ; if a far CS offer you a great people, move the settler towards the GP, found a city on the coast to burn the GP sooner !

Definitely will try this again with Siam to try to shave more turns off because I think with some luck and perfect play a sub 100 turn win is possible. I was at 121 turns with at least 10 turns wasted on mistakes with research, my Educated Elite people were 100% worthless which could have been another 10 turns if it had been Scientist x2 and Engineer x1.

Turn 100 will be harder than that. With 20 turns less, you won't probably get all 3 GP from Educated Elite. Your capital will be smaller and build UN slower. You will need to reach SP9 and build Oxford and Porcelain Tower very sooner too.

A huge challenge !

 

[Kamino]

Nice twist to early warmongering! Hadn't though of just selling that city, taking it again, selling it again HA!

We can push the concept furthermore. Why should we lose time to move an army ?

Build a settler, found the city near your border and sell it. Now you can make cash and train your troops (you need fewer).

And you can duplicate the process.

I call it farming!

 

[Rokklagið]

What about playing this game with Babylon and their +100% GS generation?

I suppose it could be ridiculous, probably getting under t100 wins...

 

[Neuro]

What about playing this game with Babylon and their +100% GS generation?

I suppose it could be ridiculous, probably getting under t100 wins...

Which is why Babylon was forbidden as a player Civ.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The exploit was in culture games, where the player saved up his/her SP's and then sold off several (a bunch) of cities in order to lower the cost to purchase policies.

This issue should probably be revisited for Cultural Victories. Clearly the game designers knew that saving Culture was allowed and later in the Game there are many ways to reduce the costs of Social Policies, otherwise they would not have designed the Culture payment system for Social Policies in the way they did. I really think it was a mistake to consider Selling/Giving/Razing a City an exploit. Since, it doesn't apply to other Victory Conditions, I'm certain that its not an exploit.

When certain things must be done to achieve an extremely early Win for a particular Victory Condition it should _not_ be considered an exploit, especially when it is a rather obvious consequence of the rules of the Game. Its not necessarily an exploit when everyone must do the same thing to Win a particular Victory Condition very early. Almost all the Time it is simply the nature of the Victory Condition that requires something done a particular way. That doesn't make it an exploit.

When one analyzes the rules of Civ V and sees that saving Culture will allow one to win a Cultural Victory earlier and also that Selling Cities will do the same. There is no reasonable justification for considering either one to be an exploit. They are both legitimate activities in the Game. To consider one to be an exploit under certain circumstances and not others is arbitrary and contrary to the Rules of the Game.

In my opinion, an exploit necessarily must be a design flaw that gives a player an unfair and often large advantage. Selling Cities is a basic function of the Game; Reducing Social Policy costs by reducing the number of Cities is also a basic function of the Game. Combining the two is a simple combination or these two basic functions. Does it now become exploitative when the Victory Goal is changed to Culture? Clearly not. There's nothing in least bit exploitative about it in my opinion. It's a logical consequence of the Rules of the Game and _not_ in the least bit unexpected which a design flaw would be.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[boehj]

Clearly the game designers knew that saving Culture was allowed and later in the Game there are many ways to reduce the costs of Social Policies, otherwise they would not have designed the Culture payment system for Social Policies in the way they did.

Well, they've done a major U-turn now because this new patch will prevent players from saving SPs. They must be cashed out immediately from now on.

The developers considered it an exploit to save culture.