Civ VII espionage wish list

[I was NC]

Alternate thread title: What V and VI should've done.

1. Presumably it's well established on the forum that there were spies before the Renaissance era. Civ Rev starts it with Writing, which might be a bit too early but is better.

2. Civ Rev also was right about having a movable spy unit. Slipping one into another nation to kidnap a Great Person was exciting.

3. Keeping the approach of being based in a city still makes sense and is not mutually exclusive with units. The approach in V of diplomats was very good, but it should not preclude espionage. Maybe tie in having an embassy,

4. There are no externally imposed caps on the number of spies. The most consequential limit is how much a nation is willing to spend, just like with the sizes of militaries.

5. Counterespionage is similar, although societal costs can increase along with more stringent measures. Shouldn't be difficult to model those.

6. The capabilities, both extent of effect and type of activity, should evolve with technology (also like militaries). Abraham Woodhull could not do as much as Aldrich Ames.

7. Going way back, I seem to recall in II that spy units sometimes could bribe the military units of other nations to defect. Granted that's much less realistic, but was fun.

8. VI is right to incorporate the notion of trading captured spies, but failed or detected missions should count as grievances.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1. Presumably it's well established on the forum that there were spies before the Renaissance era. Civ Rev starts it with Writing, which might be a bit too early but is better.

You can get them in the Medieval Era, if you play as Catherine, or adopt Monarchy which allows you to build the Intelligence Agency.
With Wu Zetian you can get them even earlier in the Classical Era.

 

[I was NC]

You can get them in the Medieval Era, if you play as Catherine, or adopt Monarchy which allows you to build the Intelligence Agency.
With Wu Zetian you can get them even earlier in the Classical Era.

Interesting, didn't realize that about W.Z. (Always something new to learn.) Even so, every civ should have the capacity very early, as happened in actual history. Goes back even farther than I realized:

Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations | Encyclopedia.com

Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations █ ADRIENNE WILMOTH LERNER Espionage is one of the oldest, and most well documented, political and military arts. The rise of the great Source for information on Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations: Encyclopedia of...

www.encyclopedia.com

 

[pokiehl]

I am sure the developers are aware of the history of espionage. (You can assume they are aware of anything that can be found by googling)

Spying occurs later in the game for gameplay reasons. In the early game, having your only Great Work stolen, or all your money siphoned, or your 1 Governor knocked out would be unfun and frustrating and really set you back. By the time Spying comes online in the middle part of the game, the player has more resources to weather the storm.

 

[I was NC]

I am sure the developers are aware of the history of espionage. (You can assume they are aware of anything that can be found by googling)

Spying occurs later in the game for gameplay reasons. In the early game, having your only Great Work stolen, or all your money siphoned, or your 1 Governor knocked out would be unfun and frustrating and really set you back. By the time Spying comes online in the middle part of the game, the player has more resources to weather the storm.

I'm certain they're aware, that's the whole basis for my critique. Your explanation makes sense as to why they opted for an obvious fiction and isn't something I'd considered as a rationale. Seems like instead they could've made ancient spies less capable (#6), like happens with many other aspects of the game.

 

[pokiehl]

I think it’s better the way it is. Spies are annoying to micromanage and annoying to deal with, so I certainly don’t want more of them. If they were weak in the ancient era then there’d be no point wasting production or time on them, so it’s better to just have them later as in the current system.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think it’s better the way it is. Spies are annoying to micromanage and annoying to deal with, so I certainly don’t want more of them. If they were weak in the ancient era then there’d be no point wasting production or time on them, so it’s better to just have them later as in the current system.

Thoroughly agree with the espionage micromanagement annoyance. The last thing the game needs is more semi-civilian 'units' that need to be run around the map.

Early espionage, as far as I can tell from reading early sources, was mostly related to activity by non-Spy individuals. Aeneas Tacitus, for example, spends most of his writing describing ways to keep some agent from betraying a city by opening the gates to the enemy, rather than discussing battle tactics (as his title would lead one to assume). Other writers describe propaganda and what we would call 'espionage' (information-gathering) perpetrated by 'diplomats' and members of trade groups and other semi-official visitors in an enemy or potentially-enemy city.

IF, therefore, earlier Espionage was deemed worthwhile (and no, I am not assuming it would be) it could perhaps be a side-effect of Diplomacy. Get some kind of Espionage Points for every Trade Route to a Civ (a general application of Genghis and the Mongols Unique, perhaps) or expand Envoys to incude Envoys to Major Civs as well as City States and get Espionage potential from them. That potential might result in lowering the defense factor of a city (the "Tacitus Effect"?) or increasing Visibility in various ways.

To get specific actions like sabotage or theft of Gold, Great People, Technologies you'd still need the later-available regular Spies, but I agree, their actions are pretty much invisible in the records of earlier Eras.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Too many civilian units being agents.
Espionage needs different GUI entirely, but what should spy do? should they also serve as saboteurs or cat burglars as well or what??

 

[Something12]

1. Presumably it's well established on the forum that there were spies before the Renaissance era. Civ Rev starts it with Writing, which might be a bit too early but is better. 4. There are no externally imposed caps on the number of spies. The most consequential limit is how much a nation is willing to spend, just like with the sizes of militaries.

There is a reason why you can’t build spies normally until the renaissance and the amount you can build is limited, getting all your gold robbed, your only great work stolen and your governor neutralized in the early game does not sound fun, and being able to just spam spies in order to use siphon funds on literally everything in the late game does not sound balanced.

 

[I was NC]

Thoroughly agree with the espionage micromanagement annoyance. The last thing the game needs is more semi-civilian 'units' that need to be run around the map.

The only real micromanagement of civilian units is workers, which I agree could be improved. Next are apostles/missionaries, which is optional (don't found a religion if you don't like them). Most games will have maybe what, two archeologists? You tell them where to go three times, for six total decisions. Or don't, build art museums instead. Same for Naturalists, although it's only once.

Doesn't seem like all that much to me. Regardless, I consider moving units around to be an important and fun part of the game. To each their own.

To get specific actions like sabotage or theft of Gold, Great People, Technologies you'd still need the later-available regular Spies, but I agree, their actions are pretty much invisible in the records of earlier Eras.

Yes, as noted above (twice), the capacity of spies easily could increase with technology, as happens with other units. Just don't pretend the whole concept magically appears in the Renaissance era.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yes, as noted above (twice), the capacity of spies easily could increase with technology, as happens with other units. Just don't pretend the whole concept magically appears in the Renaissance era.

The thing is it does. It just happens to start with Civics in the Renaissance. However, you can start earlier in the Medieval Era, if you choose to build an Intelligence Agency, which seems about the right time considering the first true intelligence agency was set up by the Byzantines. Other diplomatic/espionage tactics could be delegated to traders, delegates, or city-state envoys in the early game as was already mentioned.
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Spy_(Civ6)

 

[I was NC]

Other diplomatic/espionage tactics could be delegated to traders, delegates, or city-state envoys in the early game as was already mentioned.
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Spy_(Civ6)

This would be a great improvement, and very similar to what I'm suggesting. Still arguably not quite what happened (see link), but would be much closer.

In other words, much of the replies are actually agreeing with one of my main points, yet are framed more as arguments. Not sure why (suppose it doesn't really matter).

Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations | Encyclopedia.com

Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations █ ADRIENNE WILMOTH LERNER Espionage is one of the oldest, and most well documented, political and military arts. The rise of the great Source for information on Espionage and Intelligence, Early Historical Foundations: Encyclopedia of...

www.encyclopedia.com

 

[GeneralZIft]

Espionage is one of those things that is really hard to implement in a convincing interesting compelling way.
Maybe what they should do is add a mini-game for Spies. But I'm grasping at straws there...

 

[Bate1999]

I really liked being able to capture spies and use them as an additional bargaining chip doing trades, or perhaps never give them back, thus ending the potential threat of spies from that AI. Overall the actual spy missions they had for Civilization 6 could have been better. I do understand the "Recruit Partisans" mission had to be toned down because it was not really fun to deal with as a player. Also, some quality of life things like repeat missions could have been a thing.