Civ with 2 Capitals.

[Greywulf]

What if a civ had the ability to have 2 Capital cities? Could that be done in a balanced way? Would that make a good unique ability for a particular civ?

The civ that seems most ideal a candidate is Austria-Hungary, and their 2 Capitals are Vienna and Budapest. They were a real historical civ that actually had 2 Capital cities, and have been often listed as a desired civ for the game.

The idea was formed in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/poll-which-are-the-last-4-r-f-civs.626277/page-22
Special thank you to Alexander's Hetaroi, and Zaarin, for coming up with this idea together.

Wikipedia article about Austria-Hungary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I have to admit the idea was thrown around for a way to maybe get Phoenicia in the game, not just Carthage.
I also had the idea a while back that it could be used for the Inca as well, specifically a LUA of Huyana Capac who established a second capital at Quito, and connected it with the main one, Cuzco, by the vast road network.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayna_Capac

 

[liv]

I think South Africa has three capitals
So if a civ has two capitals. Do they start with two settlers or how do we invision this?
It sounds very powerful. Maybe too powerful

 

[Greywulf]

I have to admit the idea was thrown around for a way to maybe get Phoenicia in the game, not just Carthage.
I also had the idea a while back that it could be used for the Inca as well, specifically a LUA of Huyana Capac who established a second capital at Quito, and connected it with the main one, Cuzco, by the vast road network.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayna_Capac

It appears there are more than one good candidate for this idea then, and thank you for sharing that. Personally though, I really like the sound of Vienna and Budapest as Capitals.

I think South Africa has three capitals
So if a civ has two capitals. Do they start with two settlers or how do we invision this?
It sounds very powerful. Maybe too powerful

Very good question. Perhaps they should start with only one settler like everyone else, but the second city that they found will automatically be a Capital as well, thus they don't get too much of an early boost. Whatever the case, something would have to be done to ensure it is not too powerful an ability, which is why I thought we should discuss it.

 

[Temppu]

I guess the Government district introduced in Rise and Fall can be built in non-capital cities as well. The city with the Governmental district works in some sense as another, governmental, capital. Although this mechanic is not exactly what this thread considers, this new mechanic of R&F is quite related to this discussion.

 

[Greywulf]

I guess the Government district introduced in Rise and Fall can be built in non-capital cities as well. The city with the Governmental district works in some sense as another, governmental, capital. Although this mechanic is not exactly what this thread considers, this new mechanic of R&F is quite related to this discussion.

Are Government districts restricted to Capital city tiles? If so, then that certainly could be part of the ability of having 2 Capitals.

***

Apparently Austria-Hungary had a duel monarchy. Which duel monarchy leaders would be most ideal? And would that mean that two leaders would be featured together on the diplomatic screen?

 

[Uberfrog]

I have to admit the idea was thrown around for a way to maybe get Phoenicia in the game, not just Carthage.

They don't really have a problem with adding empires made up of independent city states to the game. Just look at Greece and the Maya, even the Aztecs. I don't see why Phoenicia would need to be any different.

You could make an interesting ability out of the dual monarchy of Austria-Hungary, but capitals in this game are not really that special. You get the Palace, God King, and some restricted wonders like the Apadana, but what else?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

They don't really have a problem with adding empires made up of independent city states to the game. Just look at Greece and the Maya, even the Aztecs. I don't see why Phoenicia would need to be any different.
You could make an interesting ability out of the dual monarchy of Austria-Hungary, but capitals in this game are not really that special. You get the Palace, God King, and some restricted wonders like the Apadana, but what else?

In the other thread I was wondering if Dido could be the leader of a Phoenician Civ, since there aren't many leader options.

Are Government districts restricted to Capital city tiles? If so, then that certainly could be part of the ability of having 2 Capitals.

No, we've already seen on the first livestream that they built their government plaza in a different city. I think the reasoning for this is introducing the Netherlands, whose government is located in The Hague, but the capital is Amsterdam. There could be some UA tied to making the city you build with the Government Plaza a second capital, however I don' know where historically this happened.
I thought of King Louis XIV building Versailles a little away from Paris, but that seems different.

 

[Uberfrog]

No, we've already seen on the first livestream that they built their government plaza in a different city. I think the reasoning for this is introducing the Netherlands, whose government is located in The Hague, but the capital is Amsterdam..

It would also be an unnecessary restriction to force you to build it in your capital, especially given the district cap.

 

[Greywulf]

You could make an interesting ability out of the dual monarchy of Austria-Hungary, but capitals in this game are not really that special. You get the Palace, God King, and some restricted wonders like the Apadana, but what else?

Well at least we would know that it wouldn't be OP then. Perhaps they could add something extra as well, if it is not that strong an ability.

 

[Zaarin]

Loyalty appears to be tied to distance from capital, so a second capital could indeed be powerful, in addition to the boosts from God King, Apadanna, etc.

 

[Guatenadian]

How could a second capital even be implemented? Could you choose what city becomes your second capital by just placing the second government district in the area of a city that is not your capital?

 

[Greywulf]

Loyalty appears to be tied to distance from capital, so a second capital could indeed be powerful, in addition to the boosts from God King, Apadanna, etc.

Ok, so that is a factor that needs to be considered for balancing this then, perhaps especially if someone decides to build their second Capital quite a distance from the first one so that they can reduce the distances to their Capitals for Loyalty. In addition to those things, 2 Capitals would mean that enemies would need to conquer at least 2 of your cities rather than just one to dominate you, if they aim for a conquest style victory. That is a nice defencive advantage to this, and I don't think that by itself is OP. As for Apadana, perhaps you can only build one of those, but you get to choose which of your 2 Capitals you want to build it in. Maybe God King would be alright to use in both Capitals together?

So far here is how I'm imagining it from that...
Loyalty must be balanced.
One Capital can build Apadana.
Both Capitals use God King.
Enemies must conquer both Capitals to dominate.
One Capital can be a Holy City.

What am I missing here? And how is it looking balance-wise?

How could a second capital even be implemented? Could you choose what city becomes your second capital by just placing the second government district in the area of a city that is not your capital?

Also very good questions. I would say that the second city you found would automatically be ranked as a Capital with your first city, but after that the rest would all be normal cities. Perhaps there could be other ways of doing this, however I do think it is risking being OP if you start the game with 2 settlers. It would be better if you have to get a settler yourself the usual way, and then find a place to found your second Capital.
I wouldn't mind hearing some suggestions on how to implement it in a balanced way.

 

[Karpius]

I would be in favor of using the Roman model.

In game terms, when your empire reaches a certain number of cities and population, along with a certain number of districts, you gain the ability to choose one of the existing cities as a second capital. This capital would need to have certain cities 'assigned' to it in a congruous manner. Of course, there would need to be downsides to this as well as the likely bonuses. Loyalty bonuses could start shifting to the second capital. The potential for the second capital to break away would need to be a constant threat. By the same token, only half the empire would be subject to defeat, while the other musters on. Diplomacy and deals, theoretically, could be split this way.

Having said all that, I have no idea if the current game architecture could even remotely support such a mechanic. My suspicion is the algorithm would need a major rewrite.

 

[Greywulf]

By the way, this idea has made me significantly more interested in an Austria-Hungary civ. It seems to bring to life to duel kingdom alliance, which strongly suggests diplomatic abilities, and also suggests united strength. I think there's something very appealing about this.

 

[Zaarin]

Of course the Apadana can only be built once; it's a wonder. I don't think there's any need to restrict which capital can build it, though; that's not really unbalanced. Also, your capital doesn't have to be your holy city--as the game stands now, you can form a religion in any Holy Site (or Stonehenge). I've made a non-capital my holy city before if that's the direction I'm expanding in.

 

[Greywulf]

Of course the Apadana can only be built once; it's a wonder. I don't think there's any need to restrict which capital can build it, though; that's not really unbalanced. Also, your capital doesn't have to be your holy city--as the game stands now, you can form a religion in any Holy Site (or Stonehenge). I've made a non-capital my holy city before if that's the direction I'm expanding in.

Cool, so the risk of unbalance is more-so to do with the Loyalty function. What about both Capitals being able to use the God King ability at the same time though? Do you think that would make a big difference?

 

[Zaarin]

Cool, so the risk of unbalance is more-so to do with the Loyalty function. What about both Capitals being able to use the God King ability at the same time though? Do you think that would make a big difference?

It's still only two cities out of at least 4-5 even if you're playing tall, plus it's only +1 to all yields--big deal early in the game, but not so much later on.

 

[Greywulf]

It's still only two cities out of at least 4-5 even if you're playing tall, plus it's only +1 to all yields--big deal early in the game, but not so much later on.

So it would provide a decent early boost, but not really matter later on? That could work still then. I don't think that would be OP, especially since they would still have to found their second city, like everybody else (they shouldn't start the game with 2 settlers, as that would be too much of an advantage, I would say).

 

[PhoenicianGold]

An Aymara civ (Bolivia) could have La Paz and Sucre.

I think Austria-Hungary is more likely to be represented as merely "Austria" under Franz Joseph, if we go by other instances of unified kingdoms like Poland-Lithuania, Germany+, and Spain-w-Portugal. I'm hoping this doesn't happen and Hungary is just represented as its own civ, because honestly Austria-Hungary didn't last very long, was strictly ruled by Austrians, and therefore would feel more like Germany-lite than its own unique thing.

I really like the Phoenicia/Carthage idea, though. Rome would have also been a great example if they had implemented Rome/Constantinople.