Civ4 - Game of Democracy - Announcement

[Rik Meleet]

Edit:

That means that this poll will be closed automatically on:

Jan 11, 2006, 12:41 AM CET
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Jan 10, 2006, 11:41 PM GMT
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Jan 10, 2006, 18:41 (6:40 pm) New York time
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Jan 10, 2006, 15:41 (3:40 pm) Los Angeles time

Due to the stunning finish of this election a request was made to the Moderators and Thunderfall to verify if the election was fair. Thunderfall performed a double-login check and found no less than 12 identical accounts and also another group of 2 identical accounts. The group with the 2 was identified as 2 siblings playing in the game.
In the group of 12 was 1 person who registered 11 accounts and voted with them. Whether he holds the 12th account is still unknown; the 12th member has so far not responded to questions send to him/her through PM and email. Now the deadline has passed for him/her to respond, we see no other way as to treat the 12th as another DL of the group of 11. The group of 12 is now no longer part of the Demogame. Number 12 can return, if (s)he contacts the moderators and can answer the open questions to our satisfaction.

The 12 accounts are (in alphabetical order):

Alphawolf
CaliSurfer
Drunken Monkey
Gorillagorilla
Imerator29
Knightlancer
Namelessones
Neanderthalnsis
OfficialDeity
Pegasus_wings
Slim_Chance
Sticky Fingers

And now we have arrived at the "awkward choice". The 12 have voted in the Which government style should get our focus?. If we disregard the 10 votes of Double logins the outcome would have been:

Flexible - 19 votes
Traditional - 5 votes
Triumvirate - 10 votes
Abstain - 1 vote.

As a consequence of this first poll (illegally) tied at 19 all for flexible and Triumvirate a 2nd poll was commenced; What government style should we focus on?. Triumvirate beat Flexible 22-16. If we deduct the illegally cast votes, the corrected result is: Triumvirate 12 - Flexible 16.

This all means that we are going for a Triumvirate government, while the majority of our citizens in fact wanted a flexible government. So that brings us to the awkward question: Do we go on with the Triumvirate government or go for Flexible ??

 

[RoboPig]

alphawolf cheated! the same alphawolf that guid-guided us through the demogame!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? our president and founding father!?!?!?!!?! this is like finding that the George Washington signed the declaration of independence 12 times my heart just skipped 2 beats when i saw his name. i continue to vote flexible because i find it better and well, more flexble. plus the party supports it and attendance does drop to the end of the demogame, amazing is how he created all those different personalities. a marine for one. a tennessee man for the other. he is an evil genius

 

[ravensfire]

Wow - that's, well, surprising to read, although suspected by his absence.

Oh, and Flexible. Tri is still to complicated and involved for my taste.

-- Ravensfire

 

[The Condor]

Wow Rik that is amazing!!!

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Writing this not only as the Flexible creator but as a citizen,

As sad and furious as I am upon seeing the results of the two polls how there were DLs created just to tie the poll, later to overturn it, I feel it would be best to stick with what we have. I can't even start to understand the type of person that cannot accept losing in a poll even once, however, we can't just let go of all that has been done. We have progressed far into these elections and I don't want to take away the roles these people have rightously earned. We can't back out now; the game has to start sometime. It is best to progress onwards with what we have, however illegally attained it was.

 

[koondrad]

Alphawolf

Hmm... I suspected that after his sudden unexplainable absence

This all means that we are going for a Triumvirate government, while the majority of our citizens in fact wanted a flexible government. So that brings us to the awkward question: Do we go on with the Triumvirate government or go for Flexible ??

Well we were so close to starting with the Triumvirate government that it almost seems silly to scrap it and start working on a new government model. Equally though, I originally voted for a flexible government because of the views of The Party. The Triumvirate model seems good although I'd rather wait and see how the flexible system will work out.


EDIT: Another idea -

Why don't we just add clauses to the CoL that allow us to change to a Flexible Government if voted for by a referendum? We can use the triumvirate while a Flexible model is drawn up.

 

[RoboPig]

Writing this not only as the Flexible creator but as a citizen,

As sad and furious as I am upon seeing the results of the two polls how there were DLs created just to tie the poll, later to overturn it, I feel it would be best to stick with what we have. I can't even start to understand the type of person that cannot accept losing in a poll even once, however, we can't just let go of all that has been done. We have progressed far into these elections and I don't want to take away the roles these people have rightously earned. We can't back out now; the game has to start sometime. It is best to progress onwards with what we have, however illegally attained it was.

well, i am betting that we will start on feb 1st anyway, for term endings and elections anyway, so we do have time to redo some polls

 

[Blkbird]

OMG, my paradoid instinct (see here) has been confirmed, the sinner is apparently indeed no less than Alphawolf!

 

[RoboPig]

OMG, my paradoid instinkt (see here) has been confirmed, Alphawolf is indeed the sinner!

my god, you visionary!
will we have a re-election for president too or take runner-up? i say re-election, that we can have a better choice
EDIT: Seems that Awolf got lots of mail from the mods and angry citizens. tried contacting him and he has hit 70 messages.

 

[DaveShack]

I would have hoped for a discussion on something of this magnitude prior to a vote.

Our current choice is between a Code of Laws which is ready to use, and an idea for a different setup which might need a couple of weeks work.

The Triumvirate CoL is finished, and despite it not being the true initial choice of the people, it was ratified overwhelmingly even discounting the duplicate votes. Granted, it has a couple of flaws which have already been identified and amendment threads have been started for those flaws. We should recognize that many players put a lot of comments into the Triumvirate system, and what resulted was largely due to those comments. In fact there are very few comments which were not implemented directly from the comment itself.

The Flexible system has not been fleshed out with the modifications which would be necessary to transform the Civ3 government to a Civ4 government. We would have to go back and complete that work, and hold a full ratification cycle.

If we choose to continue with Triumvirate we would then have to decide to either hold a new election for the vacant office of President or to continue on as the CoL says with the Secretary of State and Secretary of War taking on the President's duties.

If we choose to "switch" to the original true choice of Flexible, then we would need to hold elections, probably setting the start date at Feb 1.

I'm holding my vote to see what debate there might be.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Our current choice is between a Code of Laws which is ready to use, and an idea for a different setup which might need a couple of weeks work.

I do admit the Flexible would need a bit more attention and work, but I thought ravensfire posted a good (in his own words) 'core' to work off of here.

The Triumvirate CoL is finished, and despite it not being the true initial choice of the people, it was ratified overwhelmingly even discounting the duplicate votes.

Considering it was ratified as a result of winning the "Which government?" poll twice, which wouldn't have gone its way, I'm not sure that means much. It wouldn't have had the chance to be ratified in the first place - we don't know if the Flexible would've been 'ratified overwhelmingly' either.

I'm not sure really what is the best course of action, but the 'safest' option would be the Triumvirate, but I'd be willing to change my vote if people are willing to try it.

 

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: This isn't the place to be attacking Alphawolf. This is to decide on the next course of action. Attacking alphawolf is considered trolling/flaming, especially since he can't post, and you're thus talking about him behind his back. Now, if you have any problems with the legality of the elections situation, there's always the judiciary. Please stop the flaming/trolling/spamming now. This is about the Triumvirate government vs. Flexible, not Alphawolf.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Blkbird]

I would have hoped for a discussion on something of this magnitude prior to a vote.

Our current choice is between a Code of Laws which is ready to use, and an idea for a different setup which might need a couple of weeks work.

The Triumvirate CoL is finished, and despite it not being the true initial choice of the people, it was ratified overwhelmingly even discounting the duplicate votes. Granted, it has a couple of flaws which have already been identified and amendment threads have been started for those flaws. We should recognize that many players put a lot of comments into the Triumvirate system, and what resulted was largely due to those comments. In fact there are very few comments which were not implemented directly from the comment itself.

The Flexible system has not been fleshed out with the modifications which would be necessary to transform the Civ3 government to a Civ4 government. We would have to go back and complete that work, and hold a full ratification cycle.

If we choose to continue with Triumvirate we would then have to decide to either hold a new election for the vacant office of President or to continue on as the CoL says with the Secretary of State and Secretary of War taking on the President's duties.

If we choose to "switch" to the original true choice of Flexible, then we would need to hold elections, probably setting the start date at Feb 1.

I'm holding my vote to see what debate there might be.

I completely agree with DS (thanks btw for posting it so quickly so I don't have to write it myself), and I too will hold my vote for a bit yet.

 

[RoboPig]

I would have hoped for a discussion on something of this magnitude prior to a vote.

Our current choice is between a Code of Laws which is ready to use, and an idea for a different setup which might need a couple of weeks work.

The Triumvirate CoL is finished, and despite it not being the true initial choice of the people, it was ratified overwhelmingly even discounting the duplicate votes. Granted, it has a couple of flaws which have already been identified and amendment threads have been started for those flaws. We should recognize that many players put a lot of comments into the Triumvirate system, and what resulted was largely due to those comments. In fact there are very few comments which were not implemented directly from the comment itself.

The Flexible system has not been fleshed out with the modifications which would be necessary to transform the Civ3 government to a Civ4 government. We would have to go back and complete that work, and hold a full ratification cycle.

If we choose to continue with Triumvirate we would then have to decide to either hold a new election for the vacant office of President or to continue on as the CoL says with the Secretary of State and Secretary of War taking on the President's duties.

If we choose to "switch" to the original true choice of Flexible, then we would need to hold elections, probably setting the start date at Feb 1.

I'm holding my vote to see what debate there might be.

while it would take more work dont you think we should do it? seriously, flexible is what was fairly voted in. we cant go ahead against the people's wishes. plus, flexible will be alot better for us when we get late game. it might require new elections but it's only the 6th, so technically we have until february 1st, due to the 1st of month, 1st of term tradition. 25 days is enough to modify, ratify and elect the governement

 

[ravensfire]

There are two fairly well done proposals here for the Flexible ruleset. Neither would take significant development to finalize.

If we did stick with the current ruleset, make the runner up in the Prez election the new Prez and we can start pretty darn soon.

If we reset and go back to Flex, we'll need to redo the elections, and start in 2 weeks.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Blkbird]

There are two fairly well done proposals here for the Flexible ruleset. Neither would take significant development to finalize.

If we did stick with the current ruleset, make the runner up in the Prez election the new Prez and we can start pretty darn soon.

If we reset and go back to Flex, we'll need to redo the elections, and start in 2 weeks.

I don't think it's that simple. If we switch to Flexible, quite a few elections for various newly created ministries will have to be held after the game starts, during which time the play will likely be rather slow. I believe it will cost us more than just 2 weeks in total.

 

[RoboPig]

If we reset and go back to Flex, we'll need to redo the elections, and start in 2 weeks.

-- Ravensfire

we have enough time. i think we should redo prez elections in anycase. no offence to man o' action, but i'd like to see a second canidate up there.

 

[Pie-es-Tasty]

Oops, I voted without reading what the poll was about. (Duur I r stupid)
I just typed a bunch of stuff about Alphawolf, but then I remembered Chieftess's comment, and decided that even tho it wasn't mean, I'm not risking it.

I think that Triumvirate, being very complete, and already having elected officals, would be appropriate to coninute with that. However, Flexible did win, and if that is the will of the people, then it would also be appropirate to continue along with that. Of course in past real democracies, elections that were later held to be fraudulent weren't discarded, as far as I know (I could always be wrong).

What I'm really trying to say is, well, let's see what the poll decides and continue with that.

 

[ravensfire]

I don't think it's that simple. If we switch to Flexible, quite a few elections for various newly created ministries will have to be held after the game starts, during which time the play will likely be rather slow. I believe it will cost us more than just 2 weeks in total.

Not really. The core of the ruleset is there, so we know the initial positions. Start the elections and tweak the ruleset at the same time, and we can go in 2 weeks. That's assuming the Pres gets the game started fast.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Blkbird]

we have enough time.

I don't see why. If we stay with Tri, we can start right now (with Secretary of the State assuming presidential power). There is no need to wait until 1 Feb. or anything.

The question therefore is, is Flex so much better than Tri that the difference is worth three, four weeks of time?