Civ5 - shipping with Steamworks * plus Digital Deluxe Edition

[Sub]

The Steam version is something that will last forever.

I'm all for Steam, but that's just not true. There is no guarantee that the Steam version will last forever. Though unlikely, Valve could go out of business or shut down Steam or sell Steam off or, well, anything can happen really.

 

[arstal]

I'm not going to join any organized boycott, I'm just going to not buy the two copies that I had planned to.

I still haven't purchased Orange Box even though I have wanted play Portal and that's been, what, three years?

And yes I'll go read a book, ride a motorcycle, play Fallout or Civ 4 or some other game with all the time I won't be spending on this release. I'm not going to say that makes me happy, but forced Steam is a non-starter for me.

Use that Civ money for their competitors- EWOM/Vicky II perhaps?

that's the best way to prevent Civ VI from doing the same thing or worse- show that there is a market for non-DRMed/non-Steam stuff. They're also good games as well.

Loudest =/= Biggest.

I can point to any number of the assorted "BOYCOTT THE GAME" groups that fall apart because their major 'numbers' are just volume, not members, heck pretend I posted those screenshots (from evil Steam!) of the Modern Warfare and L4D2 boycott groups, and most of their users are ingame in those games.

The Civ playerbase and the MW2 playerbase- let's just say there are distinct differences in age, income level and education between the two groups. They'll act differently.

I think Civ will lose about 5% of sales, maybe 10%, with most of those going to competitor games.

I'm not a grumpy old man. I am willing to do things online. I just don't like the idea of being dependent on a 3rd party to run my games, who can revoke them whenever it feels like it, for a full-priced title. $20 I can live with, but not $50. Yeah, EWOM requires Impulse, but you don't need to run Impulse to run the game, period. You can uninstall Impulse and any Impulse game will still run. That's good enough.

 

[myturn]

You can discuss this on one more front now.
Check the link in sig.

 

[Sub]

I think Civ will lose about 5% of sales, maybe 10%, with most of those going to competitor games.

Lets be extremely conservative. Lets say that Civilization V would sell 1 million units without Steam. With your numbers, that would mean that with Steam, 100,000 people would refuse to buy Civ V.

Such a scenario would absurd in every respect of the word. Seriously, there is no way that this is going to happen. They're going to lose a few sales, but nowhere close to 10%, 5%, or even 1%.

 

[Shotgunbadger]

Use that Civ money for their competitors- EWOM/Vicky II perhaps?

that's the best way to prevent Civ VI from doing the same thing or worse- show that there is a market for non-DRMed/non-Steam stuff. They're also good games as well.



The Civ playerbase and the MW2 playerbase- let's just say there are distinct differences in age, income level and education between the two groups. They'll act differently.

I think Civ will lose about 5% of sales, maybe 10%, with most of those going to competitor games.

I'm not a grumpy old man. I am willing to do things online. I just don't like the idea of being dependent on a 3rd party to run my games, who can revoke them whenever it feels like it, for a full-priced title. $20 I can live with, but not $50. Yeah, EWOM requires Impulse, but you don't need to run Impulse to run the game, period. You can uninstall Impulse and any Impulse game will still run. That's good enough.

Not even gonna address your hypothetical losses, that's just so fantasy-world it's not funny.

I love this idea that we're somehow inherently better then those plebeians in other games, and that's why THIS will be the protest that works.

Really though, what's your worst case here, Steam is run by cackling ghouls who revoke your right to play for fun? Somehow Steam is uninstalled and you...I dunno can't figure out how to redownload?

Also, not to you though, for the fifth time, there will be a physical copy, it will just need Steam too, just like I can go get a physical copy of The Orange Box, it'll need steam too but I can go grab it just like any other game.

 

[Eejit]

As an example of something we should expect now that the game is steam-exclusive, Civ5 will be relatively highly priced and stay at a high price for a longer time. As a budget-conscious consumer, I only buy games when their price is closely matched with the value I believe the game has. Civ is one of the few games I'm happy to pay full price for. Most other games I buy once they have dropped in price because I don't care much for being milked of my money just to play games when they are fresh out.

I believe Steam pricing is decided by the publishers of each game, Valve have nothing to do with it (well, except for Valve games!). In fact Valve seem to push publisher partners to implement sales and have shown statistically that such sales can drastically increase profit as well as the number of copies sold.

 

[mamba]

You don't understand me - even if Steam worked fine (which I doubt heavily), I want a feeling of a real product: A glazing box, a tech tree poster, a handbook, a shiny disc and the smell of a fresh computer game. Steam is the opposite of that.

You can buy a box as before, you still will need a Steam account to register it. Just because Civ 5 uses the Steamworks toolset, does not mean it will be distributed by Steam only.

Man, we really should put the facts about this whole Steam issue someplace in a sticky, so we do not constantly have to correct the same misunderstandings

 

[mamba]

I already did, and you quoted it below here. No need to repeat myself repeat myself

Arguing semantics is not a good use of time. You define DLC to include expansions like BtS (and why not to Civ5 itself then?). I do not. Such semantics are not relevant to the points I've raised.

ok, maybe I did not get across what I meant

DLC to me is just a different distribution model for additional content. Previously we had expansion packs because small contents like one civ was not feasible to distribute. All prior expansion packs could have been made available as DLC from my perspective, DLC allows for smaller packs too, but it does not require them to be small.

Not in theory but in practice as much more than one civ has been modded in, and very professionally too.

The theoretical part was about the quality. Practically you can add it via mods, theoretically of the same quality as what Firaxis would release as DLC. Practically I do expect the official civ to be of higher quality (I gave examples of the differences in quality in the previous post).

We agree that they compete.

Regarding if there's room for both, our point of view is irrelevant. The point of view of the 'suits' that gave us forced steam is what matters.

I think mods are a good thing for civ. What the 'suits' will think when they start to see mods replicate DLC is what I'm considering

Agreed, they will be the ones which either restrict mods that compete with DLC or do not. Right now I do not expect them to do so (innocent until proven guilty..).

 

[arstal]

Not even gonna address your hypothetical losses, that's just so fantasy-world it's not funny.

I love this idea that we're somehow inherently better then those plebeians in other games, and that's why THIS will be the protest that works.

Really though, what's your worst case here, Steam is run by cackling ghouls who revoke your right to play for fun? Somehow Steam is uninstalled and you...I dunno can't figure out how to redownload?

Also, not to you though, for the fifth time, there will be a physical copy, it will just need Steam too, just like I can go get a physical copy of The Orange Box, it'll need steam too but I can go grab it just like any other game.

I'll give you a scenario that's rational.

Steam overcharges someone by mistake. Steam takes too long to fix it. User responds by putting a chargeback on Steam. Steam bricks ALL their games.

Steam does not have to be cackling ghouls- they can make mistakes.

And yes, there IS a difference between the average FPS player, and the average TBS player. Some games appeal more to older types- who act differently then younger folks.

(these aren't absolutes)


Just to touch on the "approval" question, I think I have an answer there to confirm the process. A friend of mine went for a job at 2K titled "Civilization Community Manager" a month ago. He needed lua, xml and c++ skills. Part of the role was to check uploaded mods to ensure no copyrights were breached, that the code was not malicious, and that no new processes were spawned.

He was going for the mod approver job. (He didn't get it, they hired from internally).

EDIT:

The job ad: http://jobs.gamasutra.com/jobseekerx/viewjobrss.asp?cjid=21432&accountno=362.

This would throw out FFH2 among other mods (FFH2 uses assets from other games)

This was posted by Dale over on the Impulse forums.

 

[Rikis]

I've tried steam for three days now through their "Free Portal" deal. I am now solidly in the camp of "want a Steam-less Civ V version". It wouldn't even be so bad if I installed Steam, installed the game, and then uninstalled Steam and be able to continue playing Civ V. Afterall, one of the reasons for Steam is the DRM right? I see no problem with needing Steam to install, but I do see a problem with needing Steam to play it. And no, offline version does not count. I want to remove Steam in its entirely after installing Civ V and, I am repeating myself, continue playing the game unhindered.

*Note: I know it's not possible with Portal as it is a Valve game, but Civ V isn't.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I believe Steam pricing is decided by the publishers of each game, Valve have nothing to do with it (well, except for Valve games!). In fact Valve seem to push publisher partners to implement sales and have shown statistically that such sales can drastically increase profit as well as the number of copies sold.

This is going to be a bit similar to a post I just made: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9188515&postcount=87 (the last few paragraphs in particular)

I know the pricing is decided by the publisher - that doesn't change my argument. I spoke in the linked post of a "inflated prices and regular sales" business model. It is quite an effective model so it doesn't surprise me at all that Valve uses it.

But really, I suppose only time will tell. When I bought civ4 I think it was the equivalent of about 30 to 35 USD, and that was in the first week. Civ5 is going to cost about 80USD. That's quite a price difference. It suggests to me the inevitable "sales" of civ5 will be much closer to what we really ought to be paying for it.

 

[Shotgunbadger]

Well the cost of the special Babylon edition is 60 dollars, ten dollars more then the 50 dollar norm, and normal edition is 50 dollars. You can see the costs and preorder right on steam right now.

 

[RD-BH]

... Steam pricing is decided by the publishers ... Valve seem to push publisher partners ...

Way to show the neutrallity of Valve in this equation.

Let us look down the road.
Profitable businesses eventually get sold for profit.
The new owners milk their newly purchased cash cow.
They become fascist (control freaks)
... financial rapists (milk that cow ... alot).
Having become so bloated with their ill-gotten booty,
... they vassal the rest of the world
... and win a domination victory!

(checking the paranoia meter)
Yes! I think that will do it.

My point:
Some of you are too young to appreciate this is not paranoia.
You are teaching companies how to treat you.
You are building the future.
Don't blind yourself to the lessons of history.
If you continue to give up your rights and power to greedy corporations,
you doom us and future generations.

NO to DRM.
NO to DLC.
NO to 3rd party business transactions.
NO to forced choice (ie no choice).
NO to carrot on a stick.

 

[Shotgunbadger]

Way to show the neutrallity of Valve in this equation.

Let us look down the road.
Profitable businesses eventually get sold for profit.
The new owners milk their newly purchased cash cow.
They become fascist (control freaks)
... financial rapists (milk that cow ... alot).
Having become so bloated with their ill-gotten booty,
... they vassal the rest of the world
... and win a domination victory!

(checking the paranoia meter)
Yes! I think that will do it.

My point:
Some of you are too young to appreciate this is not paranoia.
You are teaching companies how to treat you.
You are building the future.
Don't blind yourself to the lessons of history.
If you continue to give up your rights and power to greedy corporations,
you doom us and future generations.

NO to DRM.
NO to DLC.
NO to 3rd party business transactions.
NO to forced choice (ie no choice).
NO to carrot on a stick.

NO to making any sense at all.

 

[guyfamous]

Use that Civ money for their competitors- EWOM/Vicky II perhaps?

that's the best way to prevent Civ VI from doing the same thing or worse- show that there is a market for non-DRMed/non-Steam stuff. They're also good games as well.

I will be doing that. Fallout - New Vegas is on my radar, but any new TBS games will be getting a looksie from me.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Well the cost of the special Babylon edition is 60 dollars, ten dollars more then the 50 dollar norm, and normal edition is 50 dollars. You can see the costs and preorder right on steam right now.

Not if you live outside the US. Here, it's 80USD and 90USD respectively. I am indeed getting these costs from Steam right now.

 

[Sub]

I'll give you a scenario that's rational.

Steam overcharges someone by mistake. Steam takes too long to fix it. User responds by putting a chargeback on Steam. Steam bricks ALL their games.

Steam does not have to be cackling ghouls- they can make mistakes.

And yes, there IS a difference between the average FPS player, and the average TBS player. Some games appeal more to older types- who act differently then younger folks.

(these aren't absolutes)


Just to touch on the "approval" question, I think I have an answer there to confirm the process. A friend of mine went for a job at 2K titled "Civilization Community Manager" a month ago. He needed lua, xml and c++ skills. Part of the role was to check uploaded mods to ensure no copyrights were breached, that the code was not malicious, and that no new processes were spawned.

He was going for the mod approver job. (He didn't get it, they hired from internally).

EDIT:

The job ad: http://jobs.gamasutra.com/jobseekerx/viewjobrss.asp?cjid=21432&accountno=362.

This would throw out FFH2 among other mods (FFH2 uses assets from other games)

This was posted by Dale over on the Impulse forums.

This is just wild speculation on my part, but that job description leads me to believe that 2K will be hosting mods on their own servers that will automatically download / install to a users PC. In such a scenario, 2K could be sued for distributing mods that they don't own IP for. You can still make a mod for whatever your heart desired in such a scenario, you just wouldn't be able to get official hosting if you're using IP that you don't own.

Again, just wild speculation.

 

[mamba]

This is just wild speculation on my part, but that job description leads me to believe that 2K will be hosting mods on their own servers that will automatically download / install to a users PC.

That they (whether this is 2K or Steam makes no difference to me) will host them has already been said, I doubt they will be automatically downloaded though.

In such a scenario, 2K could be sued for distributing mods that they don't own IP for. You can still make a mod for whatever your heart desired in such a scenario, you just wouldn't be able to get official hosting if you're using IP that you don't own.

This scenario does not require an automatic download either.

 

[Eejit]

Way to show the neutrallity of Valve in this equation.

Way to (intentionally?) fail to differentiate between control and persuasion.

 

[2K Elizabeth]

Hey guys! It's me again.

Two Valve representatives were working with Firaxis in their offices this week and the devs took some time to chat with them about your concerns, and I have three points to make that I think will help a lot of you out.

1. How much memory and disk space does the Steam client use? The client itself takes up less than 20Mb on the drive. Valve has just released a new version of the client which uses less RAM than previous versions, and they’re working on keeping the memory footprint small. I don't have the exact number right now, but I will soon if you are interested.

2. What personally identifiable information does Valve collect with Steam? The only information players are required to provide is a valid email address and a password, and to verify they are older than 13 years of age. All other information is optional, and a player’s profile can be set to private. Valve does track the time spent playing a game, per account, but does not collect information about what other processes are running concurrently on the computer.

3. How often do I have to connect with Steam after the activation? Never again, if you choose to play in offline mode. The Steam client will still start, but will not communicate with the servers. A connection is required to activate the game and an update must be applied at that time, but after the initial activation, a player never again has to connect their computer to the Internet. However, if not connected, the players will not be able to receive updates, save to the cloud, play multiplayer, earn achievements, or receive free content.

Let me know if you have any other questions - we'll do our best to get them answered for you.