1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Civ6 Gender Biased?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AJ1905, Mar 15, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,161
    Location:
    Lucerne
    I don't get it. If you just disable barbarians and be nice to other civs, you can play peaceful without much problems. I admit that you have to build some units to discourage other civs declaring war on you. And if you play on Prince or below, defending is really easy if you have ~1 unit per city. So it doesn't force war on you. It's possible to play and win without conquering anything on Emperor, maybe even above, I haven't tried. Civ V had a "always peace" option iirc. I fear that the civ VI AI with its preference of forward settling would be painful on higher difficulty levels with that option enabled. Is there a mod for that already?
     
    AlphaShard and nzcamel like this.
  2. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,291
    Location:
    England
    Women are 'more rational'? There's so much wrong with that assertion it's hard to know where to start.
     
  3. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    557
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    142 E 42 S
    I've never really classed the Civ series as particularly violent. To me they were about as bad as battle chess. If you play in the strategic view, you really don't get any of the unit animations, it's just sliding icons.
     
    Siptah and nzcamel like this.
  4. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Battlechess...I miss those days!
     
    Siptah likes this.
  5. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,729
    Location:
    New Zealand
  6. dagriggstar

    dagriggstar Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    591
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    I've always found it strange that there is a leader in both (Catherine in V, Cleopatra in VI) that seems intent on flirting with the player......

    But on the war thing
    1) Fill up the map with more civs (and city-states)
    2) Barbs spawn in the fog. Send units out into the fog then less barb camps spawn
     
  7. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    241
    mmm. true. i suppose historically a lot of women leaders (esp. cleopatra and catherine) had their eras tied up in their sexuality... but is that more a symptom of patriacy? as in the only way to make it as a woman is to use, literally, literally, everything you have at your disposal? i mean, nobody seems to make as much of Henry V's pants as they did Elizabeths... which is pretty crazy when u start to think about it.
     
    j51 and Karmah like this.
  8. Abraxis

    Abraxis Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,312
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Not really. I think ya'll are paying too much attention to semantics, and not enough to the point she was trying to make. You're mis-quoting her, she never said women were "more rational" and the implication was that women react to conflict with less aggression than men. Which isn't an unreasonable statement in a general sense. A poor choice of words on her part maybe, but focusing on that is just getting pre-occupied with -and stearing conversation toward- triviality.
     
  9. LethalLeigh

    LethalLeigh Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    346
    Gender:
    Male
    Civ Games Have always being a War based Game. I have Played since Civ 2

    The reason that it looks like a Bias to Male leaders which I think This thread is about "Reading The Threads Title" is Because In History there have being so many more Male Leaders then Females in this historically male dominated world. (Sorry Don't blame me I was only born in 1979 So I only accept blame for the last 37 years).

    Yes I am sure there are a few Female leaders that could still be added to the game. Like Gorgo these will most likely be added as Alt Leaders over time, its only being like 5 months. My guess is they will eventually release an Alt leader for every Civ. I am sure a good number of those will be Female.
     
  10. cooldude1128

    cooldude1128 Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    322
    This is probably one of the most ridiculous complaints I've seen about the game yet, or maybe just the most ridiculously-worded, since the core idea is something I do agree with -- war is too common and leaders are far too aggressive and quick to anger. I don't see how it's connected to gender of all things, though.
     
    CivLuvah, Alkaid and Karmah like this.
  11. Kzell11b

    Kzell11b Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2014
    Messages:
    18
    I wholeheartedly disagree with your comment. There is no misquoting of the OP. The relevant bit is "Trying other games made me feel that at least Civ product accommodated a female (rational) perspective of rationality over war."

    First, as Eagle Pursuit pointed out immediately, it is sexist to claim that rationality over violence is an inherently female trait.

    Second, the implication that you're trying to point out does not follow at all. Rationality and aggression are not at opposite ends of any kind of spectrum. One can be both rational and aggressive.

    Third, not to be too harsh on the OP, but the complaint is operating on a very wonky premise: that a game (more or less) based on history, with all the conflicts that that entails, should NOT have conflict as an inherent part of its design, because it does meet their rather rarified preferences. Should I not complain that COD and Battlefield don't allow me the option to refrain from shooting someone?

    Fourth, as for the barbarians, the OP can simply turn them off.
     
    nzcamel and Depravo like this.
  12. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,751
    Location:
    UK
    Aww, someone used "snowflake".

    If you were generalise based on gender, this would be a two-way street assuming the street was level to start with. If the street is on a hill (which is also a poor metaphor), then the two-way street inherently benefits one direction of traffic over the other (by basic physics and the working of cars, it's harder to stop-start going uphill than it is downhill, which is why it's recommended to allow uphill-facing traffic right of way where it's safe to do so. And this is why I say analogies are dumb).

    There is a fascinating amount of history around violence and cooking and other presumably gender-stereotyped roles. You'll find they're normally the results of social rules enforced by the existing power structure, which for the vast majority of civilised history was men telling folks what to do, how to think, and what was right and wrong. We got most of our major religions from that kind of concept, you see. And in turn, culture. So you can't assume that the world is a flat, even, two-way street because that's not how the world works.

    "snowflake", heh. At least try to not sound like somebody dragged you from *****.
     
  13. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,291
    Location:
    England
    Because we're just that evil? Or because once upon a time the world was a poorer and more dangerous place, many jobs involved backbreaking physical labour, and infrastructure and technology hadn't developed to the stage we could cocoon lots of people in air-conditioned office blocks to do clerical work?
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,751
    Location:
    UK
    Who said anything about being evil?

    Seems to me that you're making an argument I never made so you could respond to that instead of responding to what I actually wrote.
     
  15. GIDS888

    GIDS888 King

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    783
    Location:
    England South
    OK,

    The Civ franchise is a game. There is a disclaimer before you play stating its not meant to be real.

    All humans are individuals - some are nice, some are not. Right now there are women serving in frontline capacities in several armies the world over. No doubt there are some men crying at the beauty of the sunset too.

    That said, I miss the Diplo victory and yes, the warmongery nature of the game occasionally rustles my jimmies. Bringing gender into recreation is a bit like bringing race or religion into it - a wee bit troll-like, with shades of "I'm doing my Psych Degree Thesis, where can I get some good stuff on sexism in RPGs from". Just sayin'.
     
    cooldude1128, Alkaid, Karmah and 2 others like this.
  16. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,751
    Location:
    UK
    Recreational activities, and indeed games specifically, are created from people with their own gender, race and possibly religion, and the product itself will reflect those values to some extent or another. To pretend otherwise is, at best, naive.
     
  17. CHP

    CHP Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Messages:
    7
    I hope i don't understand what you are saying.

    Are you saying that, because our society is patriarcal, then women are the victims, then it is ok if women say stupid sexist things (men are irrational bloodthirsty warmongers), but it is not ok if men answer with a stupid sexist joke (women should play cooking sim) ?

    Yes, our society is patriarcal. But women are not the only victims, men are also victims of this.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,395
    Why is everybody here so willing to accept gender being represented as a dual system? So many bigoted comments, hardly anybody acknowledges that there are 58 - ~280 genders in the world, and they all are not represented in the game, except for the (mostly white) cis male.

    Take two-spirit for example:
    Or Hijra:
    Or Bigender:

    And then we cannot forget about Neutrois either:
    (Definitions were copy-pasted from gender.wikia.com ; I realize these definitions are not universal and people who identify with one of these genders may very well have their own definition of what that gender is, and that's fine. I am not claiming that these are the definitive definitions of what these genders are, I am just using them as a starting point to educate all the uninformed people in this thread.)

    None of the other genders are represented in this heteronormative game, and it's a shame, but what I feel really sorry about are the many bigoted comments I see here, of people who want to push the gender binary as if all the other genders were made up. The OP is a perfect example for a person talking from a position of privilege, namely, having a gender identity that is accepted by society (female), while everybody who has a gender identity that some people would claim is "made up" suffers the consequences of not being included in this dialog. This is truly shameful, and I really hope this kind of gender binarism stops, because this type of uncalled for violence can destroy lives.

    Overall, I appreciate the OPs attempt to start a discussion though, and although their view of the world has led them to violently ignore all the genders they don't care about, I still think it is a good starting point.

    And it is that starting point from which I argue that Firaxis should get representatives of all genders involved in their development cycle, so they have people who can point out what options are missing. If I am declared war upon, then I should have a number of reactions available to me that reflects all the gender expressions that I might hold at any moment. That sounds like a lot, but it's probably only around 40-50, because sometimes decisions will overlap.

    Having 40-50 decisions available (+the choice to not react or be acted upon for people who identify as Neutrois) is really not asking much compared to what we get in return - an inclusive, and progressive game.
     
    cooldude1128, Alkaid, Janskey and 2 others like this.
  19. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,902
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Yeah, cos that never happened - Cleo flirting with a foreign leader... :lol:
    In many societies alliances were solidified between houses and countries via marriage. Slightly different to flirting, but to pretend that intimate relations between leaders and their families is not relevant to history is...inaccurate.

    Yes to fog busting.
     
  20. Trias

    Trias Donkey with three behinds

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    594
    And yet you will find that in modern times women play as large a part as men (at least) in perpetuating gender stereotypes. I don't know if you've had children, but it is shocking how early the gender stereotyping starts. Even before they are born the nurses/midwifes/etc. (mostly women due to existing gender stereotypes) will start classifying their various behavioral traits as either "typically male" or "typically female". At the surface this may seem innocent, but from the start children are taught to use gender as a primary classifier of traits, and as they grow and start to interpret the world they continue to use this. This indoctrination continues as they enter nursery (despite that again being a female dominated environment). Studies show that by the time that children are four they will have picked up most of the prevalent gender stereotypes. (with all the harmful effects this has on young girls' confidence in pursuing various career paths).

    The OP can be seen as a perfect example of a female identifying person perpetuating certain gender stereotypes. Namely, the implication of what the OP is saying is that liking a game with violence is unbecoming of a girl, which is part of the prevailing cultural gender stereotype steering girls to more passive, less pro-active roles.
     
    Karmah and CHP like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page