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Civ6 - Hall of Fame Q & A

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Denniz, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Retired Moderator

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    Welcome to the CivFanatics Civilization 6 Hall of Fame!

    This thread is for simple questions and answers. Over time we will add frequently asked questions from this thread to the our FAQ thread. So please check there before posting here. Thanks.
     
    Knightfall likes this.
  2. rolfejason

    rolfejason Chieftain

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    Any news on when civ6 hof will open? Just beat my first deity game :D
     
  3. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    I'm not a HoF staffer. Based on Civ V HoF, a lot has to be done. Firstly, they need to decide which patch to start from. Then they need to create a way to easily tell if people are cheating (e.g. replaying from saves, exploiting bugs etc.). There will probably be a beta first. If it's the exact same pattern as Civ V, it could be April 7, but a lot of people say Civ VI was released prematurely because Beyond Earth sucked, so it may take longer until the game is in good enough shape to accept HoF entries.
     
  4. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Unfortunately we're not really close to being able to accept saves as yet.
     
  5. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    Rolfejason, I would also add that if you look at Civ 5 HoF you'll see you can submit games won at any level. They give medals if you are in the top three of six entries, at that particular level of granularity. The most popular games tend to be gauntlets, which are often not at Deity. Top 3 is decided by either score or time. Most people care more about time. HoF is valuable because it shows wins are trustworthy e.g. Blatc just broke t190 for Deity Standard Great Plains Poland which is a tremendous achievement, and being in the HoF shows there was no save-scumming, or pre-built maps.

    Additionally, before they accept saves they need to decide what is/ isn't considered an exploit. E.g. Carl Sagan overflow for non-science victory. Gold trading with AI. Etcetera. And they have to be able to check it easily. If they don't go through all this, people will submit games that make a mockery of the HoF.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    walkyc likes this.
  6. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    A suggestion - maybe there could be separate competitions for regular and peaceful victories? It would be interesting to get an idea of the timing difference between the two approaches. I’d say no declaring war on AI or CS or pillaging in peaceful game (but OK to kill units if a Civ attacks and take free cities).

    personally I’d also love to see a One City Challenge competition.
     
    Ceydezed and Knightfall like this.
  7. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    I agree on the OCC, but peaceful I dont think is any point. It might be as fast as with war or faster. I know you took the fastest SV now with war, but number 2&3 are both peacefull.
     
  8. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    I'm interested to know if you think you could have sped up those awesome Russia times with war? I haven't played peacefully as much but I feel like with almost all Civs my time would be much slower without war. The most extreme examples would be Civs like Norway or Gran Columbia where you basically lose their unique advantages completely, but even with a Civ like China I would find it tough to get enough land for a strong game without at least a little conquering. I also tend to spend too much gold on junk like Workshops and then need to resort to rapid pillaging later in the game for my Reyna Spaceport cash. Also, I sometimes lose out on a key wonder like Pyramids and it's nice to be able to go steal it back.

    OCC is much more affected by war versus peace IMO because of city states. I am playing a really strong peaceful OCC right now and just got completely enraged when Frederick conquered Bologna, Vatican City, and now is menacing Fez (luckily I managed to surround them with a ring of Warriors in time). In a war game I would just build a few Knights and save Bologna but now I am out a science city state with a very useful Suzerain ability the rest of the game.
     
  9. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    Well honestly, Im not sure how much it would speed it up. I do not set any limits to my games, and ban certain parts of the game like other people here (Except some of the trading ones, Example: 1 resource for 1gpt). I like to play as efficient as possible, and like you say war can probably speed up things in most games. However there is a logic to why my fastest games have not included war yet. First of all Im not skilled at it yet, I have not played much war games, so its an aspect of the game I need to learn better before I include it in these games. Also war comes with a price. When I have suz of Geneva, I need to at least make 300 science per turn from pillaging to break even if I assume Im making 2000 sc/pt in the end game. Maybe that is no problem, but I dont know it well enough. The other thing is that I suspect it will cut down dramatically on the gold trade you get from the AI. That gold is important to buy the spaceports, but again probably the pillage gold is even better. Especially now after they nerfed gold from diplo favour.

    And like you pointed out to play these optimal games takes a lot of time, so I have not really been tempted to bring war into the game to complicate matters even more. But your recent game has shown me that it is long overdue to get a better take on war and introduce it to my games. Working on a Norway game now that I started way back for the purpose of testing pillage economy. Will see how fast I can finish that game next.
     
  10. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    Since there is no HOF mod for Civ 6 yet, I wanted to ask if there was a list of cheese / exploits that are accepted or banned. Some things I have considered are below. Note these are Science-specific, I believe there is plenty of Religious Victory cheese but I almost never play that VC.

    1. Taking all of an AIs cities in a peace deal. I have actually never tried this one but LilyLancer regularly posts about how they never fix it. I assume this is Banned. As Lily argues, this is too bad because in a normal game it would make sense for the AI to give one or two cities in a peace deal if they had ten and you greatly overpowered them.

    2. Trading single resources for 1gpt when the AI has 0g left. Not sure if this was fixed in the patch, but previously you could always sell 1DF for 1gpt when the AI was out of gold but still had income (gpt). I assume this is Banned.

    3. Selling resources for lump sum gold and then declaring war. I never do this even in HOF runs because it feels so wrong, but I get the impression most players condor it Cheesey but OK.

    4. Buying resources and re-selling for more gold. I admit I have been too lazy to try this but apparently you can buy DF from some AIs (or in some time frame) cheaply and then sell it for more gold. Since this seems to basically mimic being a middleman in sales, it feels realistic enough to seem Cheesy but OK.

    5. Intentionally letting cities revolt, repairing districts, pillaging, and re-conquering. I normally ignore this because it is too boring but I admit it is does take work after purposely focusing on it in my Norway HOF game. Its definitely more powerful with Norway than any other Civ. This seems Cheesy but OK.

    6. Gifting a city just to pillage and reclaim. ATEX came up with this idea, basically you gift a city with fully built up Campus and IZ just to pillage in a whole late game tech. This is so costly to set up it can't be abused as easily as normal mine-flipping, so it seems Cheesy but OK.

    7. Just found out that with Nalanda, you can get unlimited free techs from Mahavihara improvements since you get one the first time you build a Mahavihara after gaining Suzerain status even if you had it before and then lost and re-gained it. Obviously with Amani moving in and out you can abuse the hell out of this. I would assume doing this intentionally is Banned. The question is whether you can benefit from this if you lose Suzerain status with no cheesy intent because an AI tosses in some more envoys. I suppose you can get some free techs this way on the honor system.
     
  11. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Prince

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    Currently the AI will sometimes give you all their cities except their capital in a Peace Deal but they will also consent to less than all of them, so there is some AI discretion and gradation there. It might be related to not wanting to relinquish known Strategics. Khmer would not give up their Niter willingly in my most recent game.
     
  12. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    I agree with all these. Except number 7. If they intended that, you could get a new random tech every 5 turn. That is not so insanly good is it? Number 2 I think is gone.
     
  13. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    With the Nalanda bug, you can discover all techs in a single turn.
    If you were to allow such a thing, I could submit a sub T100 science victory under standard settings.
    Yes it is cheesy, but I consider pillaging flipping cities with Norway nearly as cheesy.
     
  14. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    This is why I am asking, there are so many things that feel like they are in the grey area between poor design and true bugs it would be nice to have a community standard for HOF games.

    Neighborhood Gold is another example. It seems like the gold should be awarded when the Neighborhood completes, not when it is placed. But then again that system would just make the card essentially useless. If I am playing in an immersive mode I guess its easy to justify - some shifty developers bought an old farm and took a bunch of peoples money for deposits on brand new homes, then left town the money without ever building anything. So I use it most games.

    I think your Nalanda game and my Norway game are pretty similar, except that I was too inefficient to actual execute the pillage flipping effectively. Its fair to say the Nalanda strategy takes a lot of work to actually see through, as you need to make sure you actually have enough cities for all those Mahavihara and find a way to build the spaceship/lasers since no amount of free techs will give you thousands of production and power/aluminum.

    It is perpetually annoying how the developers keep giving out new "candy" like more powerful Civs and weird game modes but ignore game-breaking bugs or major balance issues for years. The classic example of this would be Goddess of the Harvest. It was so grossly overpowered that you basically had to have it if you wanted any shot at a HOF time, so it made the game more boring if you cared about fast times. The stupid, stupid, stupid thing about Goddess of the Harvest was that all they would have had to do is make the yield a flat 20f instead of scaling it up! For goodness sake I'm not a programmer but that can't have taken more than a minute to code. Instead, we get stuck with it for three years, and then they remove it (instead of just fixing it).

    Basically if you want to play am honest HOF you need to decide yourself what is intended and what it a bug, and avoid the latter. I think the developers clearly did NOT intend the AI to offer all cities in peace deals or give unlimited techs with Nalanda and I assume they will fix them (probably in 2022). So I don't use these.

    Pillage flipping I don't think will ever be fixed. I get the impression most people who play this game are pretty casual and so no one on the development team worries about this kind of thing. A very easy nerf would be to make Builders use a charge to repair a damaged improvement (which seems right anyway). A presumably harder to code fix would be to make improvements yield nothing if pillaged a second time. But they will probably never fix it so the question is whether it is "OK" for HOF.

    I actually hate flipping, but wanted to test if I could beat my Teddy game (which I am quite proud of) with Noway. I think if I played a "fair" game with Norway I would avoid intentionally flipping cities but would be fine pillaging an AI, signing peace and then coming back for more pillaging later.
     
  15. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    Oki I did not know how the bug worked, but this is obviously not intended, and must be banned. City flipping pillage is much more difficult. The game mecahnic is just to strong now, but if we are to ban pillageing, where do we draw the line? No pillage at all? That leaves Harald at least as a useless civ. We could probably allow waring pillage, but disallow setting up pillage outposts? Although I have not tested it yet, the concept of "City chopping" would also need to be considered.
     
  16. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Originally, I suggested that a new table/ranking should be made for every new version/patch of the game. So, if a temporary meta emerged it would only affect the newest table until it was changed/fixed in the next patch.
    However, that was before NFP and the new monthly patch policy. Also, the current low level of activity does not seem to justify such a format...
    Drawing a line about what is acceptable or not will always will always involve some level of subjectivity. Also, if you impose some "artificial limits" how can you be sure if they are all followed?
     
  17. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    Yeah, separate lists wont do. As for the rules, we are so few players who actually participate, so Im sure it wont be any problem that people follow what we agree on. But I agree that it is a bit hard to draw lines on game mechanics outside the obvious bugs. Neigborhoods for example I think is perfectly fine as they are working. I dont consider it anything different than chopping.
     
  18. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    For sure it's hard to compare times between different versions. It used to be easy to get below T150 when Goddess of the Harvest was around and then the tech tree ended sooner. But now with monthly patches I doubt we'd get 2 games posted per patch. Maybe the solution is to just ignore the details for now and wait until that golden day when there is a community HOF mod like Civ 4 had.

    To be honest, I feel like comparing victory time is already compromised just by the tech tree having the ability to randomly take between 1 and 10 turns more at the end. The process is much more interesting, I love reading new strategies as speed runs with Russia, Aztecs, USA, and Babylon all look so different. I quit Civ6 for a while because there is no difficulty at all in simply winning (unless you get killed don T20 by 4 Deity Warriors of course) but got sucked back in by Civ6Trader and Whacker's posts made me start playing "against myself" instead of the AI in terms of optimizing plans and minimizing errors to get faster times.

    As for imposing bans on certain bugs / cheese, I think we just have to rely on the honor system. If someone is going to go through the trouble to cheat on a game to impress people on a message board, that's just sad! I guess we already rely on honor system for the GOTM games right?
     
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  19. ATEX

    ATEX Warlord

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    I agree with all sentences in this post! =)
     
  20. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Prince

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    Well, like I showed over in the Science thread, Nalanda hijinks only takes one Mahavihara (it's on the Niter). And a whole lot of clicking Amani in and out of there. But the Arabia screenshot also shows that the AI might be able and willing to take advantage of Nalanda too. Windmills built on Turn 75!

    Just winning is not a goal anymore so I'm playing against myself, trying to improve my game focus. I'm still not as good at Civ 6 as I was with 4 or 5. I think Civ6 is about played out though, especially in Firaxis' eyes, and focus should start shifting to Civ7.
     

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