Civ6 Overrandomization.

Naokaukodem

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First, this is not an advise thread. I don't want advises for how to play and such.

That put, let's dig deeper into the subject : why that game angries me so much nearly every single time I touch it ?

There is multiple reasons. But the biggest in my eyes is the overrandomization of everything : not that I don't want randomization, it has always been the core of Civ games and what makes its incredible replayability, but the randomization in Civ6 is unbalanced. I mean, it allows things too much past the edges of what can possibly happen sanely.

Examples : some times you will have barbarians in every direction possible, sending their scouts to your direction, and you can't do anything with 1 warrior and a scout or a slinger, creating barbs uprisings in all directions. That is not playable.

In some other times, it is the spawning location that poses problems. You may have oceans east, deserts north, toundra south, and a close and strong foe west, against who you can't do a thing. (or maybe take one city)

Other times, the map random generation is to blame : you will have a huge mountain range that forbid you access to a great part of the continent.

It's just plain stupid. Not even talking about the AI behaviors : in Deity, if you have been spotted by one or several AIs, they will use their bonus units to declare war to you and take your only city. What can you do against that ?

No matter if you can win or not, sometimes (often), the situation feels so unbearable that you can't see the end of the tunel, and just rage-quit.

That happens too often to me. I don't like it.

Moderator Action: Please do not try to fool the auto-censor. We appreciate your using language appropriate to the forum rules in future. leif
 
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aieeegrunt

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I feel the same way.

One huge factor for the early game which is basically random is the race for being the first to find city states. When you are on your first city a +2 to a yield can sometimes double your output, and whether you get that yield is largely chance. It also fast tracks you to suze.

I send my scout southeast and find several city states and double or quadruple science and gold. If I had sent that scout north instead I find barbarians and desert. That decision has a major impact on the early game, and because of the snowball effect that compounds. Find a faith CS or two and you win the Pantheon Rush; again it’s 110% coin toss
 

reddishrecue

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You know what-- that happens to me but when you slow down and care for everything a bit more such as your units, scouts and plots, eventually you can get to know more and more through research. I just research and see what I get and what happens to me.
 

Naokaukodem

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I feel the same way.

One huge factor for the early game which is basically random is the race for being the first to find city states. When you are on your first city a +2 to a yield can sometimes double your output, and whether you get that yield is largely chance. It also fast tracks you to suze.

I send my scout southeast and find several city states and double or quadruple science and gold. If I had sent that scout north instead I find barbarians and desert. That decision has a major impact on the early game, and because of the snowball effect that compounds. Find a faith CS or two and you win the Pantheon Rush; again it’s 110% coin toss

About city-States, there's also this mystery, on vanilla at least, when sometimes C-S are the old fashion way (giving large amount of what they does since the first envoy, and 2 more of their yields for each conrresponding districts at 3 and 6 envoys), and sometimes the new way, it is to say half-yields for the first envoy and for, say, libraries, and the other 3 and 6 envoys improve universities and research labs respectively. I prefer the first one by far, and when the second occurs, I'm just meh. I don't know what makes this shift.

@reddishrecue : there's also a major overrandomization of resources on the map : last game I tried, my capital was ok, but i couldn't find a good spot for my second city other than flat plain with 1-2 wheat. How crappy. I felt like a crap-fly worm eating crap. I quitted obviously. (on a side note it's true that my turns are usually quite fast and suddenly i remark i'm 20 techs away the leader meh)

Moderator Action: Edited again. Please use appropriate language in your posts. leif
 
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Bibor

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That happens too often to me. I don't like it.

You basically have two choices. Option one, set up the game to fit your personal needs. If you need the game to be fair to you (go easy on you), then set it up like that. Pick prince or king, reroll till you find an easy map for you to enjoy. Option two, set up the game to be "normal", possibly very unfair. You know the type, the one where you're lucky if you survive to turn 50.

If you want the game to be truly horrible to you, and be able to still kick its ass every time, it requires a lot of effort put into the game. I, personally, am not willing to play Deity, because if I want to compete in that league, I have the real life for that. It also gets boring – the higher the faux difficulty, the more narrow your gameplay options are. Again, just like IRL.

I think you will find that the built-in victory conditions of the game (science, culture etc.) are way less interesting than your personal wins you can achieve. Starting from a tundra-desert start and still conquering the continent just as an AI launches into space, is still an achievement.
 

Naokaukodem

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I play to win, even when i set the difficulty to Settler, I aim for building all wonders (with few exceptions, because even at Settler the AI rushes wonders. My last game exception was the Great Library, it just seems I forgot to build a campus or didn't have the tech) and win culturally. I beat Immortal multiple times (vanilla, last patch), and Deity once only, with Tomyris. But about the last 10 tries (most probably 20), I'm either rushed by AIs early, overrun by barbs, or simply 20+ techs backwards after a while. I neglect campuses (and any kind of district), but all in all they do not offer that much science, not as much as they do to the AI seemingly. When I build what, 1-2 campuses with libraries, my science is at about between 0 and 50, while the AI is still at 200+ per turn. This is silly. And I quit with frustration, again, again and again.
But remember, that is not an advise thread. :nono:
 

Linklite

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When I build what, 1-2 campuses with libraries, my science is at about between 0 and 50, while the AI is still at 200+ per turn. This is silly. And I quit with frustration, again, again and again.
I'm confused. You state that you neglect campuses and that you only build 1 or 2, but then get frustrated that you're not competitive in your science output? Either you've missed out some pretty vital context/made a typo or you're having very unrealistic expectations. For quite a while, the AI has had a hard on for science, but regardless - it just makes sense that if you don't compete, you'll fall behind.
 

Naokaukodem

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I told before that campuses do not seem to generate that much science, also. That's why I neglect them. Other that than, I don't really know what generates science, population maybe ? If I had say one campus in all my cities (let's say 5), I'm sure my science would be lower than 100 while the AIs are already above 200, and 20 techs ahead of me. The only reliable way I can compete is stealing AI cities, but that's not always possible/easy.
The AI is crazy about campuses, but they seem to benefit a lot more than they do for me. Maybe it's the way AI gets its bonuses ?
Or there is a hidden scientic city-State that every AI has suscribed at least 6 envoys on, or even several, that I don't know about ? Sometimes I neglect exploration too, but that's generally because i build warriors instead of scouts.
 

UWHabs

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Whoever told you that campuses don't generate much science was probably talking about a very specific case. Or they said something like "campuses alone don't generate much science", meaning you need a combination of campuses, libraries, science city-states, etc.. Especially if you have a lot of scientific city-states, the science can be massive. For example, you mention 5 cities and 5 campuses. If you place each in a +2 campus spot, and have 3 envoys in a scientific city-state, that's basically +10 (adjacency) + 20 (4 each in libraries) + 40 (+8 each university) = 70 science by that point. Add in some multipliers, policy cards, and other bonuses around, and you should be fine for science. And don't neglect the scouting - it might seem small, but if you miss meeting a city-state, you can be simply giving away envoys. Or sometimes meeting an extra AI means that a duplicate luxury can turn into 12-15 gold per turn in trade, which can buy a lot of settlers or libraries.

But you mention playing to win, and building every wonder., and the fact is that those 2 don't really work together. Honestly, I would say 90% of my games the first wonder I build isn't until I have wiped out a neighbour or taken the science lead in the game. If your choice is build a wonder or build a campus, you should probably 90% of the time build the campus. If it's a wonder or a settler, it's probably 95% of the time I choose the settler. The way the game works, until you are settled, you can basically choose only one of: settling land, conquering land, building wonders, or founding/spreading a religion. Trying to do more than one of those things at once doesn't really work until later on in the game, especially at the higher levels.
 

Naokaukodem

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Whoever told you that campuses don't generate much science

But nobody told me. That's just my personal 2 cents. And yes, as library are cheap, I always build them. Universities are a little bit more late, and I use to have low production in my cities, so by the time i get the tech i just build industrial zones and workshops.

But you mention playing to win, and building every wonder., and the fact is that those 2 don't really work together.

But it's on Settler difficulty mode, as I said. Plus I often take France in that case, that doubles tourism from wonders. That said, the AI was beating me to science in Settler also, so I was forced to wage little wars. (and catch back the missing wonder in the process.)

Next game on Deity I suppose I will scout a more lot, faster, and settle up more cities as soon as possible. Well, if the barbs and the AI let me to do so...
 

aieeegrunt

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I think campus’suses (campi? Stupid language) are something like several beakers per population. So they won’t do much till your population grows

The real root of your problem is probably that you are on Diety, where the AI gets absurd bonus
 

Naokaukodem

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I think campus’suses (campi? Stupid language) are something like several beakers per population. So they won’t do much till your population grows

Oh I didn't know that. That's a vast revelation, if it's true. Thx.

The real root of your problem is probably that you are on Diety, where the AI gets absurd bonus

The problem also is that I usually win without much efforts on Immortal (well that's not totally true, I for one believe i'm on Deity sometimes in Immortal - double checking with the menu screen). Last game (just there, before I watch Phantom of the Paradise, yes my life is cool, maybe too much :yawn: ) I was all good, except maybe barbarians that killed two of my archers, one warrior and one slinger (I love how barbs chase your unit whenever they shouldn't be able to know where it's gone, and they insist, they insist, until you fall on another barbs tribe units, possibly several, what a vast joke, it's like Benny Hill's chasings, I wish 2K has the rights on the music to fit Firaxis sense of humour). Of course I was last in science, I had to do something, anything, try. So I declared war on the guy with the Impies-with-weird-name with 2 swordmen and an archer. Nothing could go wrong right ? I even managed to upgrade my swords into man-at-arms, and crush his impies. That's when the barbs invited themselves to the party and killed two of my precious archers with their so smart crossbows management. (too clever AI, really :rolleyes: ) And then TADA ! The City-State Congo (yeah right I think it's Congo) took let without wall appeared magically with walls and killed one of my man-at-arm besieging it. That was too much. Did I mention i didn't declare the war alone ? I befriend a close AI of him, and surprise declared in a treaty. If only that wasn't for that wall and those barbs... Man, that game is such a mess. I guess that's what makes it good, but sometimes it's kinda over the board as i mentionned in the OP. But absurdity can be fun after all, ain't it ?
 

Zegangani

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Well, I don't think there is overrandomization in Civ6. Yes, some things are more random than in the previous Games, but that fits the design of the Game, which is "Age of Exploration" (with a focus on "Playing the Map"), where more randomness is necessary and expected, otherwise there won't be much replayability to the Game given its Design (You can't expect it to work like Civ V).

It's just plain stupid. Not even talking about the AI behaviors : in Deity, if you have been spotted by one or several AIs, they will use their bonus units to declare war to you and take your only city. What can you do against that ?
I don't see why that is something random, not to mention over-random. Wouldn't you do the same if you had that bonus Unit and the chance to defeat them? Have you never done that before to an AI :groucho:?

As for Barbarians, I don't see them as part of the randomization problems in Civ6. The Barbs in Civ6 are simply way more aggressive and stronger than in the previous Games, which makes a Clan of Barbs spawning next to you feel like something that the Game is randomly throwing at you to punish (only) you, where in reality they are just stronger and more agressive than how they used to be in the previous Games, otherwise they are not much different from any of those Games. I think Barbs just need some balance, more individuality and a way to interact with them. Barbarian Clans Mode seems to go in that direction. I hope they keep improving them in Civ 7.

Starting Locations is similar to the Barbarians Issue: it just feels off sometimes, because in Civ6 we have more Civ/Leader traits that rely/make use of certain Terrains/Features. That's easy to solve: just improve the script that spawns Players based on their Start Biases and also fix the other issues, like spawing in a place surrounded by mountains. But the other thing about not spawning in a place where there isn't enough of a resource for example, that isn't an Issue IMO, that adds some more challenge and fun to the Game, otherwise I can just pick Legendary Start. But all of that isn't a Design Issue but a coding/scripting one (I saw the script, and it isn't implemented well for how Civ6 works. Reason why I made the Origin Mod, that fixes some of the Issues).

However, eventhough there are a lot of randomization in Civ6, the issue with them IMO is that they aren't perfectly designed, but the Devs did a a good job in implementing them nonethless. There are 3 Types of Randomization in Civ6 IMO:
- Ones that give the Player some small/moderate challenge to overpass them (if they currently don't benefit from them), while also giving the Player many ways to do that. Ex: City-States. While it's true that the first Player to meet a CS gets a free Envoy there, which benefits that Player a lot in the early Game, other Players have still a chance to benefit from the CS: gaining Envoys, fulfilling a Quest, attack the CS and take it, raze it so no player can benefit from it...etc. This adds some little strategy + fun to the Game. (Though, I admit, it has its flaws, but overall its a good mechanic)
- Random Events that mess up with the Player or come with a caveat, but that also come with a Benefit. Ex: most of the Disasters. Apart from the Forest Fires that can skyrocket the Yields of a Tile, this one is mostly balanced enough IMO. (I'm not a fan of the Distasters tbh, but I admit they are well designed (NFP Disasters excluded))
- Semi-Random things that aren't per se random, but feel like being random. Ex: the Loyalty Mechanic. Due to the bad AI Settling behavior and difficulty of settling Colonies on Continents where there are too many foreign Cities, this one requires some strategy (especially durring conquest) and planning, and even then sometimes it feels like gambling, especially if one Player is in a Golden Age and the other is in a Dark one. This one is the hardest to balance, because if you put many things in the hands of the Player, then that would make the mechanic useless, make it more uncontrollable/random, then it will feel like punishment. But the Devs have done a good Job at balancing that. Design-wise, it's not my favorit Mechanic in the Game (I love to settle Colonies, so...).

The Loyalty and Desaster Mechanics are my least favorite mechanics in the Game, but I admit, the devs did a really good job in their Design as well as Balance. They feel too random to me, but that's only because they don't fit with my personal Playstyle, and I would rather not have them than working my way around them, so it's more like a personal preference than a design failure by the devs. And I think it's the same case for the things that you have listed above, the Game just doesn't play like how you would prefer it to do/or not.

Solutions (I'm not advising you, I'm just listing possible solution on how to cope with mechanics that don't fit one's playstyle/preferences):
- adjust your Playstyle according to the design of the Game, instead of forcing yourself to using your own playstyle durring all the games (I can't see how that would work tbh)
- use Mods. There are plenty of Mods that adjust/change/balance the Game in many ways, if you're lucky to find one that suits you, then... Enjoy!
- mod the Game yourself. I know, not everyone is interested in this or is willing to put some time and effort in learning how to do it, but good thing that there is a Workshop filled with all sorts of Mods that change all sorts of things. (I just think that the Players don't appreciate the work of Modders and support them enough. Imagine if the Players stood with the Modders to request the Civ6 DLL or more modding possibilities from Firaxis, would you think FXS wouldn't have accepted that? they would at least expose some more modding possibilities and modding documents. And you have to know, most Modders that I know mod the Game more than they actually play it, so it's the Mod users that benefit the most here afterall)
 
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Bostock

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I think campus’suses (campi? Stupid language) are something like several beakers per population. So they won’t do much till your population grows

The real root of your problem is probably that you are on Diety, where the AI gets absurd bonus

Population has no effect on the output of campuses.
 
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Oh I didn't know that. That's a vast revelation, if it's true. Thx.
Specialists placed in a library or university can produce more science, which is what I think was being referenced. The base campus, without buildings, only gets science based of off it's adjacency bonuses.
 

Naokaukodem

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I don't see why that is something random, not to mention over-random. Wouldn't you do the same if you had that bonus Unit and the chance to defeat them? Have you never done that before to an AI :groucho:?

I wish I can do that, if only Settler difficulty would just give us bonuses instead of giving AI maluses.
But it's something random in the way sometimes you will have absolutely no problem with AIs early, even if you spawn near one or two (probably occupied to other early wars), and some other times you will be litterally overrun to the point you can't do anything, and straight up lose. That's two extremes, and ones that you don't have any sort of control on ! It's just a lotery. A very unpleasant one. Most people are aware of it, and blame it.

And it's like that with a lot of things in Civ6. (barbs, map generation, spawning location etc.)

Population has no effect on the output of campuses.

But does population have an effect on science output ?
 

reddishrecue

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And it's like that with a lot of things in Civ6. (barbs, map generation, spawning location etc.)



But does population have an effect on science output ?
Population does increase science in libraries in civ 5 but I doubt it does that in civ 6.
 

Bibor

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But remember, that is not an advise thread. :nono:

From your comments so far, I can only advise one thing – learn more about game mechanics. It's not as random or frustrating as you make it out to be.

Primary yields (food, production and – to an extent – gold) are meant to be converted into secondary yields (science, culture, military might, faith etc). As the game progresses, costs grow, both for primary and secondary yields. This forces you to split the productivity of your empire into two separate segments: one, getting stuff that you need now, two, getting stuff as preparation for the future. From your comments, I assume you have issues with investing everyhing your empire generates "into the now". That won't work. How it does work is... The one advantage that the human player will always have over AI is the ability to focus yield generation, open windows of opportunity and then use this temporary advantage to close the human/AI gap.
 

UWHabs

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Population does increase science in libraries in civ 5 but I doubt it does that in civ 6.

You get something like 0.3 science per population point by default. It doesn't increase library output or anything, but you get some yields from population. But that's a very small amount - if you have one envoy point in a scientific CS, then the library will give you the same science yield as the population from a size-10 city.

But yeah, taking a game state and breaking down what all the yields mean is definitely a great way to dig deeper into the game. One of the best mods out there is the one which tells you what each policy card gives you (I forget what the name is off-hand. Better Policy Cards or something?) Anyways, it's not perfect and misses some cases, but it's truly eye-opening to see what impact using the double science adjacency card is vs using a production card or another modifier. If only just to use that as an easy way to see how your empire is split out. For example, if my civ is gaining 80 science per turn, but I see the Double Campus Adjacency card would give +18 science, then I know that I'm currently gaining 18 science from campus adjacency. I mean, duh, that's how the card works, but it just makes you start thinking that nearly 1/4 of my science comes from campus adjacency. If later in the game, that same card is still giving +18 science but now my empire's science is at 150 per turn, then I can see that obviously I'm gaining a lot more from buildings. And thus I can think about whether it makes sense to still run that card, or maybe that card slot on something else.
 

Naokaukodem

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open windows of opportunity

That's very Shadoky to me. The only window of opportunity I can think of in Civ is the ability to make wars when you are superior, on par or with a little less powerful units.
By the way this thread is not about science that you seem to talk about essentially, it's more general than that.
But it's true last game i quit is because the first (knew, which was second) AI had triple science than me. Other ones was not too frightening, especially when i was building campuses and universities.

Primary yields (food, production and – to an extent – gold) are meant to be converted into secondary yields (science, culture, military might, faith etc).

I'm curious how you convert food, production or gold into faith appart from build several holy sites very early and get a religion ? Because that's usually what AIs do in Deity. (3 starting settlers ?)
 
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