CivGeneral's Catholicism Thread

[RameNoodle]

The Eucarist (sp?) is to represent the last super where Jesus and his 12 buddies ate bread and drank wine. Its the painting that Da Vici did. During that supper the Holy Spirit came to them as a flame. Eating the bread and drinking the wine (or grape juice) like they did while the priest says what ever it is he says ( i forgot) that Jesus said. Its all symbolic of that last supper.

Kind of an old post, but I just wanted to clarify this. skadistic is getting the last supper and pentecost confused. The last supper was Jesus celebrating Passover, which He knew was going to be His last meal and therefore began the events that the entire Christian belief is based on. In Pentecost, I believe 50 days after Easter, the Holy Spirit came to the Apostles as tongues of flame and wind (Symbolic, not literal) and gave them the courage to go out and spread God's word to the people of the world.

And those people "bowing" to the Pope, they aren't bowing in worship to him, they are merely showing respect to one of the greatest men (Catholic, Jewish, Muslim) ever to see the face of the earth.

BTW I think this is a great thread because I often see people who don't know much about the Church making false accusations against the Catholic people without knowing all the facts. I appreciate that this is here to help those people learn to be a little bit more educated about the things they are attacking.

 

[Zarn]

What do you have to say about the Santo Ninos (the statues of saints)? Are they not idols? In my country, Philippines, people kiss and cry at the statues like they are magical entities. Are they not to be condemned for worshipping idols? I hear this occurs in most catholic countries, especially the Central and South American ones. Just something that bugs me.

I wouldn't call it idol worship. The saints are subject to God just like other humans and the angels. Some people feel that God is more likely to listen to a saint than any other human. I haven't heard of saints being considered gods. Worshipping saints or treating them like gods would be sinning, though. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You are right that Catholicism in the Philippines and some nations in Latin America is different than say Europe, Canada, and the US.

FYI: As a US Catholic my say wouldn't mean as much, since I haven't really experienced the differences.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

What do you have to say about the Santo Ninos (the statues of saints)? Are they not idols? In my country, Philippines, people kiss and cry at the statues like they are magical entities. Are they not to be condemned for worshipping idols? I hear this occurs in most catholic countries, especially the Central and South American ones. Just something that bugs me.

Yea, it's one of those Philipines & Latin American things ... I could start complaning but i don't want to turn this thread into Iconoclasts vs Iconodules.

 

[nonconformist]

Because Jesus did not marry. (Things like the "Da Vinci Code" are false, BTW).

It's got nothing to do with that-quite simply the Church didn't want to hand over their property to the Priests's sons when the priest died.

 

[CurtSibling]

Nonconformist is correct.

The churchly edicts mostly have a pragmatic and wordly meaning,
and sadly believers seem unable to see the rip-off behind the rituals.

.

 

[JohnRM]

The word sacrament does not appear in the Bible because it is a term we use to describe those things. I prefer the term Ordinance and from the Bible it appears to be only two such ordinances that God tells the Church to observe. We must see that is a command directly rom god and another thing an ordinance of the Church must be is that is shows the Gospel message in it, because Baptism shows the Gospel message by showing the fact that God died for your sins, was buired and rose agian, and the Lord's supper shows that because we have the wine, which represents the blood of Christ which is shed for us, and the bread, which represents his body, which was bruiseed for us. The whole thing of being a Church is to present the Gospel and if the rituals of a Church are not doing that, then one must wonders why a Church is doing that ritual in the first place.

Was that an anti-Catholic rant?

 

[CurtSibling]

Do I sense a holy war brewing?

 

[classical_hero]

Was that an anti-Catholic rant?

It was more of a rant for the Catholic Church to be focused on the core issue of being a Church, and that is presenting the Gospel. That should be the main aim of any Church.

 

[CurtSibling]

I agree completely.

A church is meant to decipher divinity for believers, not get immersed in money and power-plays.

.

 

[Chieftess]

What do you have to say about the Santo Ninos (the statues of saints)? Are they not idols? In my country, Philippines, people kiss and cry at the statues like they are magical entities. Are they not to be condemned for worshipping idols? I hear this occurs in most catholic countries, especially the Central and South American ones. Just something that bugs me.

Are photos idols? Statues are a long tradition for one simple reason - Photos of fellow church members just didn't exist. The thing is, we can't look into people's minds to see if they're venerating the person (showing a sign of respect), or worshiping them. Statues were the photos of antiquity. If people actually make the mistake of worshiping them, then God will sort that out when they die. The intent was to be like a history lesson - "This is who this great Christian was. They definately made it to Heaven, and you can ask them to pray for you in addition to having fellow church members pray for you [like a prayer group].". Now, instead of statues, we have CNN to thank for giving us pictures of 'modern day saints' like Mother Terasa and Pope John Paul II (not official yet, but probably will be in a few years if the right criteria are met).


BTW, If they're idols, then what about statues of George Washington, or any other political leader/general/whatnot?

I agree completely.

A church is meant to decipher divinity for believers, not get immersed in money and power-plays.

.

Define "power-play".

Do I sense a holy war brewing?

Shall we ban you first before it starts?

 

[ironduck]

To all those who are all upset about the possibility of the pope being worshipped, I actually posted the pictures tongue in cheek. It was a direct response to Chieftess's request for pictures of people bowing down before the pope. People do that all the time, you can't have seen much of the pope if you don't know that

That said, even though I was being tongue-in-cheek, there is definitely an air of worship surrounding the pope in some highly catholic places. Rome, for instance. I've seen that often enough when I've been there, and I've also seen in person how people respond to the pope. It goes a lot further than respect and admiration.

 

[Chieftess]

That said, even though I was being tongue-in-cheek, there is definitely an air of worship surrounding the pope in some highly catholic places. Rome, for instance. I've seen that often enough when I've been there, and I've also seen in person how people respond to the pope. It goes a lot further than respect and admiration.

You could say the same about every celebrity, athele, and any other famous person.

 

[skadistic]

Kind of an old post, but I just wanted to clarify this. skadistic is getting the last supper and pentecost confused. The last supper was Jesus celebrating Passover, which He knew was going to be His last meal and therefore began the events that the entire Christian belief is based on. In Pentecost, I believe 50 days after Easter, the Holy Spirit came to the Apostles as tongues of flame and wind (Symbolic, not literal) and gave them the courage to go out and spread God's word to the people of the world.

Thanks for that. I dont want to spread misinformation. You'd think that being raised catholic and an alter boy for many years plus all the sunday school I'd have payed more atention. But when you don't believe the dribble spewed fourth much of it gets pushed to the nether reaches of the mind and scewed.

 

[Sidhe]

I'm afraid I would have to go with non conformist I think the primary motivation behind denying marriage to priests was probably financial not spiritual, after all the early Christians didn't deny their "preachers" this right. I think the Catholic church may have dressed it up as an emulation of Jesus but that is just religious politics not fact. I seem to remember St john the Divine was celebate all his life but I don't know the reasons behind it for all I know he was asexual?

Perhaps just to be really controversial we should start a thread calle Did Jesus and Mary Magdallen do the dirty?, just to assuage this Da vinciesque banter

 

[Xenocrates]

Are there cannibalistic overtones to the eating bread and drinking wine ritual?

My understanding is that the issue of Jesus' marriage is controversial. Can you tell me why?

I always thought that Priests were encouraged to be celibate because otherwide they would be tempted to take the best girls; thus annoying the male congregation and inhibit the spreading of the meme. Is this wrong?

Chief Dan George:

"When the white man came,
we had the land and they had the bibles.
Now they have the land and we have the bibles."

Bantu Saying:

"At first we had the land and the white man had the bible. Now we have the Bible and the white man has the land."

What's the truth about these quotations? Is religion a means to acquire wealth and resources from others as it is with Civ4

Is Catholicism a particularly effective religion in the way that I described above and if so, why?

 

[Sidhe]

Religion has always been used to justify war. The church itself can be blamed in some cases for assenting to calling wars holy or against an anti christ. But in the vast majority of cases the Church usually spoke out against wars in the name of God although religous wars are the third largest source of death in Europe, the religion itself wasn't always to blame, governments can pass of any old religous crap if they say they are bringing enlightenment to savages or whatever. Although the Catholic Chruch in Spain, kept mighty quiet about the Conquistadors capture of the southern Americas, could it be the vast quantities of silver they brought back? No please stop converting the peasants of the region, no war is against the tennants of our faith, please stop, not much of a counter argument there I thought

 

[Kozmos]

Should you've seen what I censored, I'd know it would offend all denominations.

Isnt posting those danish cartoons pretty much the same thing and I've seen it posted on all parts of the CFC forum...

Moderator Action: Public discussing of moderation actions is forbidden by forum rules; should you need feedback on it, please PM me.

 

[ironduck]

You could say the same about every celebrity, athele, and any other famous person.

Except that not everyone is forbidden to worship other people

You specifically said that catholics do not bow down before the pope and do not worship him. You're mistaken, and I simply pointed that out.

 

[Zarn]

Catholics don't worship the him. It is only respect. Take it from a Catholic.

Trolling won't make it any different.

 

[ironduck]

Ah, I see, it's trolling when it comes from a non-catholic?

I guess all non-catholics should cease commenting on anything that involves catholics then? All the catholics I have observed doing things that appear like worship are of course doing none of the sort because I'm not a catholic so I could not possibly understand.

No point discussing catholicism if that's the case. All the catholics already know, and the non-catholics cannot discuss it because they just don't get it.