CivGeneral's Catholicism Thread

[Zarn]

Ah, I see, it's trolling when it comes from a non-catholic?

I guess all non-catholics should cease commenting on anything that involves catholics then? All the catholics I have observed doing things that appear like worship are of course doing none of the sort because I'm not a catholic so I could not possibly understand.

No point discussing catholicism if that's the case. All the catholics already know, and the non-catholics cannot discuss it because they just don't get it.

I have the same feelings as those people, and I would react to the Pope is a similar way. I don't think the Pope is a God, and it is not worship. I know what they are doing. You can't debate something that is not debatable.

Me: Catholics don't worship the Pope. It isn't a part of Catholicism.

You: Yes, it is. Catholics don't know that they worship the pope. This needs to be debated.

Doesn't that sound a bit ridiculous? It isn't even a debate thread. it is a 'let people ask Catholics their questions about the Catholicism' thread.

 

[ironduck]

I'm simply saying that I've observed catholics that appear to worship him.

You called that trolling.

This means I can't really put forth any observations because it's just trolling to you.

I actually think catholicism has much bigger issues than people worshipping some old German geezer.

 

[Zarn]

You said 'air of worship' and 'It goes a lot further than respect and admiration.' You were implying that Catholics worship him. It is a non-issue. You just wanted to make it one.

Anyone who was really just saying that they appeared to worship him wouldn't have continued to 'debate.' They would have been much more polite about it.

 

[ironduck]

I said that it goes a lot further than respect and admiration in some places. I can tell since I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

[JohnRM]

It was more of a rant for the Catholic Church to be focused on the core issue of being a Church, and that is presenting the Gospel. That should be the main aim of any Church.

Catholics believe that these five sacraments are apart of the Gospel.

 

[Zarn]

I said that it goes a lot further than respect and admiration in some places. I can tell since I've seen it with my own eyes.

I'm telling you it doesn't. That is all it is. I have the same feelings towards the Pope. I know what they are doing. Why are you saying this?

After a while, I just have to stop responding, so I will. This thread isn't suppose to be debating what Catholics know or believe. It is suppose to be asking what they know or believe.

 

[slip79]

Catholicism is a Christian Denomination. Much like Baptists and Lutherans are a type of Christian Denomination. Catholics are in fact Christians. The Nicene Creed is the basic foundations for Christianity (Though Restoranationists dont accept the Nicene Creed and the council of Nicene)

Before the East-West Schism. There was just one Christian Denomination, Chalcedonian Christianity (Pre-Schism Christianity). After disputes about the leadership of the Patriarch of Rome should be in higher authority than other patriarchs. Christianity splits into two Denomination. One is Catholicism and the other is Eastern Orthodoxy.

Before the Ease-West schism there were WAY more than one major christian denomination.
Early christianity was frought with schisms, intense debate and retribution amonsgt the differing sects.
The Council of Nicea did not help really. All it did was classify some as heretics and others as "worshipping" in the "correct" way. The voting was a close-run thing and could've gone either way IIRC.
There were centuries of debate around the personification of God in Jesus and about the holy trinity of god, son and holy spirit. Whether Jesus was merely a man etc etc etc. Hugely interesting time in the christian faith and within it's early politics if one chooses to look into it.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

You could say the same about every celebrity, athele, and any other famous person.

It is indeed possible to respect someone due to the position they hold without agreeing with their views or their religion. If I ever personally met the Pope, the Dali Lama, the Queen of England, the Emperor of Japan, any US president, etc. I would have no problem treating them with respect and addressing them as sir, etc. as appropriate.

I would never voluntarily kneel for anyone.

I personally don't find movie stars, athletes or musicians to be worthy of the same level of respect as world leaders. To me most of these people have inflated self egos well beyond what is actually deserved. Being able to act, play with a ball, or sing are not even in the same category as the awesome level of responsibility required of world leaders of large groups of people.

 

[Irish Caesar]

I think that people kneel for the Pope to bless them. As I understand it, you can ask anyone to bless you...that is, for them to ask God to bless you.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Why is kneeling that important, IIRC in many orthodox rituals (i cannot translate the names) i remember kneeling a few times ... the ritual names are the same (i think) for catholics - it's just the ... "process" that differes.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

I think that people kneel for the Pope to bless them. As I understand it, you can ask anyone to bless you...that is, for them to ask God to bless you.

Unless you were in a coma or something similar why couldn't you just directly ask god for the blessing yourself? Does the number of people who ask or the status of the person doing the asking(as in a request from the pope that you be blessed) somehow increase the chance that god may hear your request and/or grant said request?

 

[Sidhe]

I would imagine asking for the popes blessing is both a respectful acknowledgement of his position and a request directly to God for blessing, being as the Pope is Gods mouthpeice.

Well kneeling to accept blessing from a pontiff is probably more like kneeling before God to accept his blessing than kneeling in a submissive fashion. But the kneeling thing is a throw back to the midle ages anyway where you would have to kneel before someone to recieve an acclaim and or blessing of that "higher" person be it a queen king or Bishop. Even kings and queens would have to kneel before God, acknowledging that they are God's chosen representative in a monarchy.

 

[FredLC]

I would imagine asking for the popes blessing is both a respectful acknowledgement of his position and a request directly to God for blessing, being as the Pope is Gods mouthpeice.

Careful. You are getting closer and closer to worshipping the pope, him being "God's mouthpiece" and all.

Fact is that many of the actions practiced by Catholics are akin to idol worship. You guys do try to dodge the label by placing church authorities, prophets and saints as mere people, but at the same time their acts are infallible (in case of the pope, through church dogma), their writings irrefutable (because they were inspired by God), and they are best heard by God when they request miracles (or are believed to, this being why catholics use to ask them for the miracles they want God to perform).

Intermediaries or not, this puts them in a position of supremacy over other humans, and saying it does not, or arguing that technically it isn't what it looks like, IMHO, just don't change the reality of that fact.

Regards .

 

[Sidhe]

Na the pope worships me he's always phoning me up at 2am and asking for advice on ecumenical matters

 

[ironduck]

Sometimes he bugs me on msn for a game of Worms..

 

[MamboJoel]

Do you feel young people find mass boring ?

 

[skadistic]

Do you feel young people find mass boring ?

Hell yes! Thats why I became an alter boy. Its more entertaining to watch the people who fall asleep and checking out the preaties then to stair at the backs of heads while you sit, stand, sit , neal, sit, stand........

 

[Zarn]

Do you feel young people find mass boring ?

Yeah, but it depends on the church. Most Catholic churches can be boring to a child. Few of them are a lot livelier and the priest actually tells good jokes.

Fred: I've always prayed directly to the Father, so I have never been into the saint thing. At the same time, the saint never grants the prayer. Only the Father does, so it isn't worshiping the saint. It is basically asking someone else to ask/ pray to the Father for something. If I asked you to pray for my cousin for a safe return to the States, would that mean I think you are superior or god like? Certainly not. Neither of us is superior to the other in terms of spirituality. I don't see how asking a saint (or clergyman for that matter) is any different.


The Pope isn't infallible. He can be wrong. Some matters the Pope can't wrong, but those matters are very few.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Unless you were in a coma or something similar why couldn't you just directly ask god for the blessing yourself?

You could.

Does the number of people who ask or the status of the person doing the asking(as in a request from the pope that you be blessed) somehow increase the chance that god may hear your request and/or grant said request?

Can't hurt, can it?

Do you feel young people find mass boring ?

Depends on how long the sermon is. And I've sat through some l o n g ones recently...

 

[El_Machinae]

I think there's a scripture stating "when two or more are gathered together in prayer, anything is possible"

This is why people get others to pray for them.