1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Civics @ 1740 AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game II: Citizens' started by DaveShack, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Our current civics are:
    • Representation +3[science] per specialist, +2:) in 5 largest cities, medium upkeep
    • Vassalage +2xp per new unit, +27 free units, high upkeep
    • Serfdom workers +50% faster, low upkeep
    • Mercantilism +1 free specialist per city, no foreign trade routes, medium upkeep
    • Organized Religion build missionaries without monastery, cities with state religion buildings 25% faster, high upkeep

    For government, all civics are available. Changing civics loses +3[science] per specialist and the happy citizens in large cities.

    If we choose police state upkeep would go up by 8gpt, War anger down 50%, and military unit production up 25%. We don't need it now, but if we wanted to handle Rome in one shot this would let us sustain the war and get it over with quickly.

    If we choose universal suffrage, we can spend gold to rush production and towns produce 1 [hammers]

    For legal and labor we can pick anything. For religion we have anything but theocracy. OK, I've got it started but have something to do right now, can't fill in the costs and benefits of the remaining options. I'm not necessarily advocating a change, just recording all our choices for a nice, new, clean discussion on the current options. Feel free to post proposed changes, but please include both the benefit of changing and the cost. If you want to post a set of changes as a unit, that's ok too.
     
  2. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Civics info

    I support Representation, Free Speech, Emancipation, Mercantilism, Free Religion.
     
  3. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Thanks for the link. Care to help us out by summarizing the net differences due to this proposed change, so that everyone doesn't have to calculate it themselves? :)
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Representation and Mercantilism are good for specialists, Free Speech is good for towns, emancipation gives other civs unhappiness and accelerates cottage growth and free religion gives additional happiness and a 10% science bonus.

    Giving a net figure is very difficult because it's hard to value things like cottage growth and unhappiness for other civs properly.
     
  5. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    Lisbon
    IMHO, the first question is when a change will be.

    If said change is delayed until total war on Romans end, then I agree with
    Dutch proposal:

    Representation and Mercantilism for SE; Free Speech and Emancipation for
    CE (as our economy is an hybrid); and Free Religion for science and happy.

    But to change right now seems problematic, as we can need Vassalage and
    do not need Police State, so a change just for the Labor, may be not.

    Best regards,
     
  6. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I would say by the closure of the Roman War is the best time, as Dutchfire said, since war weariness will be nulled out by anarchy, and at that time, we do not need more expert forces. I would say by the conquest of Ravenna, we should change.

    I agree that we need to leave vassalage and serfdom behind, and modernize.
     
  7. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,440
    Location:
    Germany
    Mostly I vote for bureau against free speech, but in this game we have in NotA
    only 22 commerce and 32 hamer,
    so bureau gives only 11 commerce and 16 hamer.

    So i vote then for free speech.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    I'm not sure why war anger being nulled by anarchy is important, given that anarchy also stops production. The next turn the people will be happy again anyway, whether there is anarchy that turn or not.

    We had a good discussion either at the beginning of this game or the last one on the timing of anarchy, and the commonly accepted view is that timing matters only when you're trying to finish something urgent (move anarchy later), to avoid anarchy during a GA, and with worker actions that affect worked tiles (move anarchy earlier, before the tile is improved).
     
  9. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I think there is some consensus to make the change after having taken the bulk of Roman cities.
     
  10. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    That discussion was at the start of this demogame, mostly between me and Conroe (it was one of the better discussions we've had in this demogame IMO).

    That discussion still applies here. Let me give a theoretical example:

    The output of the civ in question is 100 + 5 * t, with t being the number of non-anarchy turns until then. However, on a turn with war weariness (marked in red), the output will only be 80% of the normal output because there are less happy citizens. There will only be heavy war weariness on turn 10. In case 1, we revolt after the war weariness has hit, in case two we revolt on turn 10, during the war weariness. The revolt will only last 1 turn.



    As can be seen, it's better to revolt during anarchy.
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    This example assumes that WW will only persist for one turn, or that we'll be ready to end the war at that point whether objectives have been met or not, which is not a realistic assumption. If the WW persists then the effect is reduced.

    The model also doesn't factor in net production changes due to the civics change. Intuitively it should be better to change earlier any time the change involves a higher compounding rate.
     
  12. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,440
    Location:
    Germany
    I don't understand the formel for WW, so i can't make a vote for the best time for anarchy.
    If i have is right, then the best moment will be 1 turn befor we make peace, because we have the most anarchy.
     
  13. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Do it again with more turns of WW if you want, and you'll get the same result. I also think that we'll be able to tell when the war is going to end a couple of turns in advance, enough to make the switch.

    The net production changes due to the civics change are indeed a good call. However, as long as we're playing significant amounts of troops, vassalage (our current civic) will probably be worth it.
     
  14. Cer

    Cer Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    145
    The principle of the table dutchfire showed is entirely sound.

    Essentially: It is better to lose a turn of progress when your progress would be slow anyway than when you're doing well. Progress being science and hammers, mostly.

    Turns where we're affected by a lot of war weariness are going to be relatively unhelpful so we don't lose as much if theyre completely useless. Turns where we have no WW, we don't want to lose all our production.

    To all citizens: these forums contain an article (see the strategy section's "strategy articles" subsection) that explains war weariness. A couple of important points from that are: war weariness is on a points system. Unit combat is the main way to get WW points and in enemy territory you get twice as much by having a unit fight and lose as you get if it fights and wins. Being at war without combat=no addition to war weariness. Twice as many unit-fights makes twice as much WW, other things being equal.
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Here's an article on WW, not sure if it's the same one but it probably is.
     
  16. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Another point to remember is war weariness and anarchy hurt cities,
    but not units.

    So, it hurts less when we have the units we want, performing the
    tasks we want.

    Best regards,
     
  17. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,937
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    I'd also like to point out our civic upkeep costs is 163 gold. That is not only killing us now, but it's going to hurt us in the long run since it will cause an increase in inflation. And theres no way to decrease inflation, only keep it under control.
     
  18. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Shall we revolt now?
     
  19. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    We should do that when the monasteries are up.
     
  20. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Change now to increase our commerce, as the basic gain is much superior to
    the cost from the delay of monasteries (10% science and +1 gold to shrines).

    Best regards,
     

Share This Page