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Civics Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 Fallout: Tame The Waste (FTTW)' started by Lib.Spi't, Feb 11, 2015.

  1. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    Here is the thread to discuss all things civic related.

    Current Civic List:
    Spoiler :

    Leadership:
    Chieftain
    Strength
    Wealth
    Military
    Democratic

    Military:
    Gang
    Militia
    Banditry
    Professional Army
    Robotic Armies

    'Recruitment'
    Survivalism
    Slavery
    Refuge
    Penal System
    Citizenship

    Economy:
    Barter
    Bottle Caps
    Stocks and Shares
    Military Control
    Printed Currency

    Research:
    Scavenging
    Human Testing
    Scientific Study
    Military Science
    Computer Simulation



    Civic Impact Plan:
    Spoiler :

    Leadership:
    Chieftain: Centralised Power, Massive boost for Capital.
    Strength: Aggressive, Destructive, Lacking economy and Intellectual elements, power through domination.
    Wealth: Increaed Income, Increased Merchant Focus/Power, Increased Corporate Power. Increased Costs for everything not merchant related.
    Military: Improved military, requires a strong military to maintain stability, non-military elements suffer.
    Democratic: Diffusion of power and happiness. Higher 'accountability'.

    Military:
    Gang: DOp Strength, power through undermining opposition.
    Militia: Quantity over Quality.
    Banditry: Powerful DOps and pillage/domination economy.
    Professional Army: Quality Over Quantity
    Robotic Armies: Robots, Robots Everywhere.

    'Recruitment'
    Survivalism: More food/less productivity. Negative GP Production, Scav. Specialist(New concept) produce Food.
    Slavery: Allows Slavery
    Refuge: Allows Immigrants/Refugees (population redistrubution) Improvements spawn defence units (maybe).
    Penal System: Allows Slavery Uses Prison Labour as slaves
    Citizenship: Citizen specialist more powerful, larger happiness and health requirements (Citizens refuse to be content with squalor)

    Economy:
    Barter: Low Yield Boosting, Basic Bonus Resource Boosts (food stuffs mostly), Low Commerce Production
    Bottle Caps: Improved Trade Routes, Improved Income from Scav. Improvements and Ruins, High return from Nuka Cola and PreWar booze.
    Stocks and Shares: High Upkeep, Better/Faster Improvements, Better Merchants(or possibly some kind of stock trading specialist), Posibly Short term/diminishing rewards.
    Military Control: High Upkeep, Military Production boosts, low happiness, Slow Improvement Growth, Boost to 'Strategic' Resource Benefits, reduced growth.
    Printed Currency: Increased Tax(Coin) Commerce, Improved Merchants, (Professional Specialists: Increased Output, Negative Commerce, Unhappiness)

    Research:
    Scavenging: Scav. Improvement Boost, Scav. Specialist(New concept) produce Science, Negative GP production
    Human Testing: Slaves Produce Science, Scientists/Doctors(New concept) producce Unhappiness, Doctors Produce Science, Citizens Produce Science/Unhappiness/Unheathiness.
    Scientific Study: Improved Scientist, Special buildings provide Science from Resources, High Upkeep, Scientists produce negative gold commerce, (Maybe Unlimited Scientists and Increased GP Production)
    Military Science: Boost to Military Production, Strategic Resources produce Science(Special Buildings), Scientists produce Unhappiness and less science.
    Computer Simulation: High Upkeep, Engineers produce Science, Special Buildings produce Sciene from Electiricity Bonus Resource.



    Civic Abilities:
    Unlock Units and Buildings (cannot function without active civic)
    Spawn Units from Improvements (On Build and Repeatedly)

    The Aim of Civics:
    Spoiler :
    We will have the ability for traits that are blocked/removed by civic choices, traits that require civic choices and civic choices that require traits, as well as civics can add points to gain traits.

    This will allow for a very cool and very deep civic system.

    Essentially what I hope to eventually achieve is a system that in essence makes civics more powerful the longer you use them, as well as making them more 'damaging' or much 'wider' in impact when you change your civics in relation to how long you have been using that civic.

    It can even impact each faction differently for each civic choice.
    So Reno using the Gang Civic can gain them all kinds of Crime Lord traits that give them all kinds of unique abilities.
    It could even be negative like the NCR using the Slavery Civic for a long time could lead to a loss of the NCR Rangers.

    How does it work?
    Well, each civic can unlock units and buildings, so the more of these you build the bigger the impact will be when you switch civics, as the buildings and units shut down. I also hope to create long chains of these buildings so building them will keep unlocking more things but will increasingly tie your empire to that civic.

    Also each turn a civic is active, it will add points to one or more traits, and will eventually add that trait to your character, these traits can also unlock buildings and units, and other trait benefits, and can have the civic as a requirement, so if you change.. bye bye traits.

    Traits can also have levels, so you could gain the first level trait by having a civic active for 10 turns, then level 2 would arrive after 50 turns and so on.

    So the longer you remain in a civic choice the more powerful and specialised your faction will become in that civic style.

    If you then begin to weight your construction and unit choices down that road, it will accelerate these special trait gains, and also make it far harder to walk away from the civic path you have chosen as you could find a huge part of your civilization immediately crumbles into ruin.

    As I said before these civic/trait lines and branches could also be different for each faction, so a focus on slavery could see the raiders and slavers become more and more powerful, while it brings the NCR to ruin.

    One path could see the BoS fall into isolationist stagnation, while the same path could see the Ghouls build a Radioactive Ghoul Utopia.

    Obviously that is all details that need to be worked out, but I hope you will see the exciting possibilities of it!
     
  2. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    8 Tags that are not used in Traits (so have to be set in civics) (So lots of civic/trait evolution options available!)
    Spoiler :

    iAIWeight

    DisableTraits
    TraitCounterModifiers

    bStateReligion
    iAnarchyLength
    iCivicPercentAnger

    These 2 are actually in traits as well, they just have a slightly different name. (this could be a mistake/bug/problem will have to see, but I don't think it is.)
    iExtraHappiness (for all cities)
    iExtraHealth (for all cities)




    Clanky
    Spoiler :

    Any chance for a simplification of civics?

    Every civic, every single one, has multiple negative attributes to it. I think we should return the civics to the "opportunity cost" system they had in vanilla. Where the main disadvantage of a civic was that there was another option. Not that the civic itself tacks on +5 Gold maintenance for all units, +25% war wariness, and -10% unit production.


    Lib. (He so dreamy!)
    Spoiler :
    I will be working on civics eventually, but I like the system, some of it I was just experimenting with, but overall I like the +/- effects of civics.

    What I would love to get eventually is an extra screen that does a 'net effect' display, that shows all of the civic effects you have chosen in a single entry, so all the +/- are combined into a final value etc.

    I also eventually want to write out a bunch of descriptions that lay out the pros and cons of a civic choice. but many of them are somewhat common sense. In a wealth society everyone wants to get more money (so soldiers want a bigger pay check), a society built on strength doesn't care if it is at war (because it can test that strength), and a professional military takes longer to train because you are training them properly.
     
  3. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    Current Civic Effects and Plans:
    Spoiler :

    Leadership:
    Spoiler :

    Chosen One: Centralised Power, Massive boost for Capital. Expensive Empire
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep (Change this to High)
    +200% Cost to City Distance
    +200% Cost to City Number
    Plunder to Capital
    +30% Yields in Capital
    +20% Commerce in Capital

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :

    +20% Yields in Capital
    +10% Happy in Capital
    +20% Commerce in Capital

    Lvl2
    Spoiler :

    -50% Cost to City Distance
    -50% Cost to City Number
    +50% Cost to Corporations
    +10% Commerce in Capital


    Strength: Aggressive, Destructive, Lacking economy and Intellectual elements, power through domination.
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    +50% GrGen Rate
    +5XP New Units
    +3 Happy per City Unit
    -25% War Unhappy
    +10 Hammer and Safety Per Great Instructor
    +4 Unhappy Per religion in city
    Sacrifice Pop. Rush

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Wealth: Increaed Income, Increased Merchant Focus/Power, Increased Corporate Power. Increased Costs for everything not merchant related.
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    +50% Cost to City Number
    -50% Cost to Corporations
    -50% Military Production
    +5 Gold and Coins From GrMerchant/Merchant
    +3 Trade Route Per City
    +10% Gold For Cities and Trade Routes
    -3 Coins per Specialist
    Gold Rush
    +3.00 Coins Support Cost per Military Unit

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Military: Improved military, requires a strong military to maintain stability, non-military elements suffer.
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    -50% GrPer Rate
    +50% GrGen Rate
    +50% Cost to Corporations
    +5XP New Units
    +20% Military Production
    +5 Happy per City Unit
    Units Produced With Food
    Can Draft 15 Units Per Turn
    -50% War Unhappy
    -10 Coins From Military Trainer
    -5 Coins From Gr Military Instructor
    +10 Safety From Military Trainer
    +20 Safety From Gr Military Instructor
    +5 Hammer From Military Trainer
    +10 Hammer From Gr Military Instructor
    +10 XP with State 'Religion'

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Democratic: Diffusion of power and happiness. Higher 'accountability'.
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    +50% GrPer Rate
    +100% Cost to City Number
    +10 Health and Happy in Cities
    +1 Happy per City Unit
    +40% War Unhappy
    +5 Specialists per City
    Unhappy for Civs Without
    +10 Happy in 6 Largest Cities
    +20 Hammer From Improvement:Town
    +1.00 Coins Support Cost per Unit
    +2.00 Coins Support Cost per Military Unit
    Special Buildings: Polling Station, (V) Polling Station

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :






    Military:
    Spoiler :

    Gang: DOp Strength, power through undermining opposition.
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    +20% Production for Operatives
    +30% Gold in Capital

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Militia: Quantity over Quality.
    Spoiler :

    Medium Upkeep
    -25% Cost to City Number
    +50% Military Production
    +5 Free Units
    +5 Free Military Units
    Units Produced With Food
    Can Draft 15 Units Per Turn
    +50% XP from Combat inside own borders
    +50% War Unhappy
    Gardens Spawn Town Militia When Built

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Banditry: Powerful DOps and pillage/domination economy.
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    -20% GrPer Rate
    +30% GrGen Rate
    +20% Military Production
    +30% Production for Operatives
    +20% Unhealthy From Pop.
    +20% Coins, -20% Science in Cities

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Professional Army: Quality Over Quantity
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    +100% GrGen Rate
    +5XP New Units
    -50% Military Production
    +10 Happy per City Unit
    No Pillage Income
    -10% Coins, +10% Safety in City
    +10 Happy from Building:Barracks
    +2.00 Coins Cost per Military Unit
    Special Buildings: Military Academy, Military Base, Special Forces Training Facility, (V)Military Command Facility, (V)Special Forces Training Facility.

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Robotic Armies: Robots, Robots Everywhere.
    Spoiler :

    -20% Cost to Corporations
    +10 Happy, Healthy in City
    +20% Production for Robots
    -50% War Unhappy
    No Pillage Income
    Unhappy for Civs Without
    -15% Coins, +20% Science in City
    +10 Happy in 6 Largest Cities
    Special Buildings: AI Lab, Advanced Robot Factory, Advanced AI Lab, Prime Robot Facility, (V)AI Lab, (V)Advanced Robot Factory, (V)Advanced AI Lab, (V)Prime Robot Facility,

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :






    'Recruitment'
    Spoiler :

    Survivalism: More food/less productivity. Negative GP Production, Scav. Specialist(New concept) produce Food.
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    +50% Cost to City Number
    +5 Free Units
    +1 Happy per City Unit
    +20% Food, -20% Hammers in city

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Slavery: Allows Slavery
    Spoiler :

    Medium Upkeep
    Workers Improve +100% faster
    +50% Improvement Growth
    +1 Happy per City Unit
    +20% Unhealthy From Pop.
    Sacrifice Pop. Rush
    Allows Slavery
    Special Buildings: Slaver's Guild HQ, Slaver's Guild, (V) Slave Processing Facility
    Special Units: Slaver, Slave Catcher, People Trafficker, Soylant Green Collector

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Refuge: Allows Immigrants/Refugees (population redistrubution) Improvements spawn defence units (maybe).
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    +50% GrPer Rate
    +50% Cost to City Distance
    +10 Happy, Healthy in City
    Workers Improve +25% faster
    +5 Happy per City Unit
    +50% War Unhappy
    +2 Specialists per City
    +1 Trade Route Per City
    Unhappy for Civs Without
    +5 Food From Improvement:Garden, Farmstead
    +10 Hammer From Improvement:Town
    Special Building: Refugee Centre

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Penal System: Allows Slavery Uses Prison Labour as slaves
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    +100% Cost to City Distance
    +10 Unhappy in City
    Workers Improve +30% faster
    +5 Happy per City Unit
    +20% War Unhappy
    Allows Slavery
    +1 Food, +2 Hammer, +1 Gold from Improvement:Workshop
    +1.00 Coins Support Cost per Unit
    +2.00 Coins Support Cost per Military Unit
    Special Buildings: Prison, (V) Detention Centre

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Citizenship: Citizen specialist more powerful, larger happiness and health requirements (Citizens refuse to be content with squalor)
    Spoiler :

    High Upkeep
    +50% GrPer Rate
    +50% GrPer Rate with State 'Religion'
    +100% Cost to City Distance
    +100% Cost to City Number
    +10 Unhappy and Unhealthy in City
    +50% War Unhappy
    +5 Specialists per City
    +5 Commerces From Citizen
    -1 Food, +3 Hammer, -5 Gold From Citizen
    -1 Happy and Health From Citizen
    Unhappy for Civs Without
    +5 Happy for City with State 'Religion'
    +5.00 Coins Support Cost per Unit
    +5.00 Coins Support Cost per Military Unit

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :







    Economy:
    Spoiler :

    Barter: Low Yield Boosting, Basic Bonus Resource Boosts (food stuffs mostly), Low Commerce Production.
    Spoiler :

    +1/2/3 Food, +2/4/6 Hammer to Improvement:Scavenger

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Bottle Caps: Improved Trade Routes, Improved Income from Scav. Improvements and Ruins, High return from Nuka Cola and PreWar booze.
    Spoiler :

    +1 free Specialist
    +3/6/9 Gold to Improvement:Scavenger

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Stocks and Shares: High Upkeep, Better/Faster Improvements, Better Merchants(or possibly some kind of stock trading specialist), Posibly Short term/diminishing rewards.
    Spoiler :

    +100% Cost to Corporations
    +10 Unhappy in City
    -2 Food, Hammer from Merchant
    +4 Gold From Merchant
    +5 Gold from Great Merchant
    +2 Trade Routes per City
    -2 Food from Improvement:Farmstead
    +1 Gold from Improvement:Garden
    +2 Gold from Improvement:Mine, Workshop
    +4 Gold from Improvement:Farmstead
    Special Building: Mining Company

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Military Control: High Upkeep, Military Production boosts, low happiness, Slow Improvement Growth, Boost to 'Strategic' Resource Benefits, reduced growth.
    Spoiler :

    +50% GrGen Rate
    No Cost for City Distance
    +20 Unhappy in City
    +2XP for Units
    +50% Military Production
    +10 Free Military Units
    Units Produced With Food
    Can Draft 15 Units Per Turn
    +50% Unhealthy From Pop.
    -30% War Unhappy
    No Foreign Trade Routes
    Corporations have no effect
    Foreign Corporations have no effect
    -20% Gold in Cities
    +20 Unhappy in 6 Largest Cities

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Printed Currency: Increased Tax(Coin) Commerce, Improved Merchants, (Professional Specialists: Increased Output, Negative Commerce, Unhappiness)
    Spoiler :

    +20% Gold in Cities
    +10 Gold from Improvement:Town
    +1.00 Coins Cost per Unit
    +1.00 Coins Cost per Military Unit
    Special Buildings: Cash Printer, (V) Cash Printer

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :






    Research:
    Spoiler :

    Scavenging: Scav. Improvement Boost, Scav. Specialist(New concept) produce Science, Negative GP production.
    Spoiler :

    Low Upkeep
    +50% Cost to Corporations
    +50% War Unhappy
    +3/6/9 Gold to Improvement:Scavenger

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Human Testing: Slaves Produce Science, Scientists/Doctors(New concept) producce Unhappiness, Doctors Produce Science, Citizens Produce Science/Unhappiness/Unheathiness.
    Spoiler :

    -50% GrPer Rate
    +20 Unhappy and Unhealthy in City
    +20% Unhealthy From Pop.
    +20 Science from Great Scientist
    +10 Science, -2 Happy, -2 Healthy from Scientist
    +5 Science, +2 Happy, +2 Healthy from Enslaved Worker
    Unhappy for Civs Without (THough if working correctly it should actually be a positive effect)
    Allows Slavery
    Special Buildings: FEV Factory, Advanced FEV Factory, Advanced FEV Lab, (V) FEV Factory, (V) Advanced FEV Factory, (V) Advanced FEV Lab.

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Scientific Study: Improved Scientist, Special buildings provide Science from Resources, High Upkeep, Scientists produce negative gold commerce, (Maybe Unlimited Scientists and Increased GP Production)
    Spoiler :

    +30% GrPer Rate
    +30% Cost to City Number
    +25% Cost to Corporations
    +50% War Unhappy
    +2 Specialists per City
    +10 Science, -2 Gold from Scientist
    +20 Science from Great Scientist
    +5 Science, +2 Gold from Merchant
    +5 Science, +4 Gold from Great Merchant
    Special Buildings: Academy, (V) Academy

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Military Science: Boost to Military Production, Strategic Resources produce Science(Special Buildings), Scientists produce Unhappiness and less science.
    Spoiler :

    No Upkeep
    +50% GrGen Rate
    +50% GrGen Rate in own borders
    +50% Cost to Corporations
    +5 Unhappy and Unhealthy in City
    +50% Military Production
    +0 Free Military Units (something needs fixing)
    +2 Happy per City Unit
    Units Produced With Food
    Can Draft 15 Units Per Turn
    +5% XP from Combat inside own borders
    -50% War Unhappy
    -2 Gold, -2 Happy from Scientist
    +10 Unhappy in 6 Largest Cities
    -2.00 Coins Cost per Military Unit

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :




    Computer Simulation: High Upkeep, Engineers produce Science, Special Buildings produce Sciene from Electricity Bonus Resource.
    Spoiler :

    -100% GrPer Rate
    +100% GrPer Rate in City with State 'Religion'
    -20% Cost to City Distance
    +20% Cost to City Number
    -20% Cost to Corporations
    Workers Improve +30% faster
    +30% Improvement Growth
    -20% Unhealthy From Pop.
    +5 Science, -2 Gold from Scientist
    +10 Science from Great Scientist
    +5 Science, +2 Hammer, -2 Gold from Engineer
    +10 Science, +2 Hammer from Great Engineer
    +30% Science in City
    Special Buildings: Laboratory, AI Lab, Advanced Robotic Factory, Advanced AI Lab, Prime Robot Facility, (V) Laboratory, (V) AI Lab, (V) Advanced Robotic Factory, (V) Advanced AI Lab, (V) Prime Robot Facility.

    Trait:
    Lvl1
    Spoiler :



    Lvl2
    Spoiler :








    I don't really like the idea of civics being purely positive.

    Running a population just isn't that neat...

    Every decision you make is going to upset someone or make something more difficult.

    That is the reality that I want to simulate.

    There will never be a 'good' choice, only the best choice for your current situation.
     
  4. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,261
    Location:
    USA
    There is no right choice, there is just the choice that is the least wrong. You get something but also don't get something else. The big negative to it is that there might be better options out there, as opposed to is going to be economic suicide due to maintenance.

    If you feel determined to maintain the malices of civics then what about simplifying what they do? I do not feel as though every single civic should throw in a modifier for everything.
     
  5. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    There is still a lot of work to be done to civics, those settings haven't really changed since the first time I experimented with the code, we also have a lot of other options that will be coming into civics.

    More Building and Unit Options, Reimplementing Improvements spawning units depending on civics.
    More Specialist changes, I can't remember what other civic abilities were added by archid.. I am waiting for the documentation, or at least the point where I remember everything they do... before I redesign them.

    Some of the tags don't fit for everything (like I said I was experimenting at the time) but many of them do.

    Stuff like more 'aggressive' civics reduce GP points, because you have a society that is less tolerant or geared towards intellect and innovation, or is more stifling of civil liberty.

    Or more peaceful/non-violent civics affect unit productivity and drive up costs, because they come with more rights and legislations to protect those rights.

    Most civics are affected by 'state-religion' (need to find all the text strings to fix for this) because this represents the unification of your nation and your chosen/political ideology, so if you have political support present in a city, it means you can better enforce your will on those people.

    There are things that can be 'pruned' but the vast majority (I didn't spend that long on them) fit with the themes and patterns of that civic's situation.

    The entries seem overwhelming at first, because there is so much stuff in them, but once you start to recognise how civics organise the tags and deliver the information, you start to see the patterns within the civics, and can begin to predict the kinds of effects they will have, and where to look to find your 'priority' information depending on what you want to do.

    As well as the Cost/Benefit Analysis of each. If you don't really care about getting Great People at one time, you will skip over that first whole section of lines because it refers to GP and GG's production, same with other sections of the civics.
     
  6. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,261
    Location:
    USA
    On a lighter note I feel that the Civic: "Robotic Armies" should be renamed to something more in line with pre-war tech maybe "Pre-War Focus" pretty much the type of military the Enclave and BoS focus on. Because while I like robots, I really like them. They have seldom, with two exceptions, been the ENTIRE focus of a factions military.

    Pre-War Focus, or whatever, would imply that the faction's focus is on well what the name implies. They still can and for all intents on purposes will use robots but the name just broadens what the civic can mean.
     
  7. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    Yeah that could be a good change (it may even go in a different section, or we may even have an entirely new Category as we have the display infrastructure to do that now.).

    I think when I first came up with that you had been bugging me about robots, and had just added in all those new robots and I was thinking about things like the calculator, and just the idea that robots could be a viable military solution.

    So I made the option to focus your military towards a non-human alternative. It could even be something like, instead of pre-war, Non-Human Warfare, and opens up stuff like intelligent and cybernetically controlled deathclaws and centaurs, etc.

    We could even have a new category for 'military equipment/doctrines' that does something like:

    Melee (legionesque)
    Ranged
    Pre-War (BoS)
    Industrial (NCR)
    Non-Human (Enclave)
    Elite (BoS/Enclave)
    Balanced

    Or whatever, and weights your military units and production in a certain direction.

    Hopefully eventually we can even have Faction Unique Civics, so certain faction will have a 'wider' version of a civic, that allows them to encompass more components into a single civic.

    Lots of options.

    Part of the trick is coming up with the right mix of cost/benefit and 'playstyle/situation weight'

    The idea behind the Robot Civic, was mostly for a situation where you have lots of money and not a lot of population (You can cope with the mounting costs of robot maintenance) I also have never got far enough into a game to really test how well these civics actually change and effect things, because all my energy was spent hitting code with hammers! :badcomp:
     
  8. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
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    One thing I noticed in my civic experimentation, is that some information is not accurately delivered, some tags display the same statement whenter it is a postive or negative value.

    I think one is the 'Penalty for civs without this civic' I experimented with positive and negative values, but the statement was the same. I wanted to see if I could make civs happy because they didn't have that civic active.
     
  9. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

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    Lets try to prune down what exactly the civics should do. Be good or bad.
     
  10. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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  11. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

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    Spoiler :


    Some of the civics are bit too narrow in scope and I wasn't really sure exactly what would be good about them as opposed to other civics in the same category.

    For example all of the science civics should obviously increase research in some way but at what cost to society? That is should our research be quiet and out of the way? (scientific study) Or be an integral part of society in which everyone participates? (computer simulation) Or even worse a scourge to society that everyone dreads (human testing)
     
  12. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I also don't like the idea of starting civics doing nothing, it is just boring..

    I want there to be a choice to 'evolve', there is a moment where it makes sense to move from one to another, rather than it simply being first new civic, change, first new civic, change.

    Like botlle caps, they change the focus of scavenger camps. In the beginning you get food and hammers, but once you can build farms and you have production buildings it can make sense to switch to more income.

    Spoiler :

    Leadership:
    Chieftain:
    Strength: +Protection, Defensive Buildings
    Wealth: +Wealth
    Military: +Military Production
    Democratic: +Happiness

    Military:
    Gang: +Production Operatives
    Militia: + Food Builds Units
    Banditry:
    Professional Army: +Can Draft, + Unit Experience
    Robotic Armies: + Production of Advanced Units

    'Recruitment'
    Survivalism:
    Slavery: Whip (Pop. Rush), +Unhappiness
    Refuge: - Protection, + Happiness
    Penal System: + Protection, -Happiness
    Citizenship: + Happiness

    Economy:
    Barter:
    Bottle Caps: + Trade Routes,
    Stocks and Shares: + Lower Corporation Upkeep
    Military Control: + No Corporations, + Production (To Everything?)
    Printed Currency: + No Foreign Trade Routes, +% Gold

    Research:
    Scavenging:
    Human Testing: - Happiness, - Health, + Research
    Scientific Study:
    Military Science:
    Computer Simulation: Later Building Options


    EDIT:
    can you put a spoiler round that image, the red writing gives me a headache :D

    There are some good thoughts there, like I said I need to get my head wrapped round what we can and can't do with civics now, before I go for my full design of them.

    I also have to add back in the civic reqs. to all the buildings and units that got left out of the rebuild by accident.

    I will add my thoughts on your ideas later, writing those out from your image gave me a roaring headache :D
     
  13. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

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    Its just I felt that each civic should do in general. And if there is a building that. The reason for not wanting the initial civics is that they all sound inherently negative. Which would only incur malices, causing someone to once again try to get out of them as soon as possible.

    I like the idea of the economic civics giving minor buffs to some improvements, the other civic categories wouldn't make much sense if they did so, using bottle caps as a currency would increase trade routes. Since, well, just about everyone accepts their use. For some reason.
     
  14. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    As far as I know they were originally made into a currency by the water merchants of the Hub, backed by a water value.

    The Hub reinstated it after the NCR/BoS War when the NCR were forced to abandon the gold standard on their currency and had nothing with which to back the value of it.

    So The Hub tried to reinstate itself as a dominant economic force in the NCR. (which they were always trying to do! :D)
     
  15. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    There are lots of positives that we could apply to those starting civics, as well as improvement boosts.

    Examples:
    Cheiftain: could provide boosts to capital, but increased costs to number of cities etc.

    Banditry: Can boost pillage %(I am fairly certain this is an extra pillage feature..maybe not..) As well as all pillage goes to the capital. We could also have a unique unit that can pillage an area(need to check if archid added or left out that TLOtag).

    Survivalism: Citizens get +1 food making it easier for them to grow in the early stages (as everyone is involved in foraging for survival)

    Barter: This improved scavenger camps with more food and hammers. (representing the idea of swapping supplies between each other)

    Scavenging: Could again give a boost to scavenger camps, perhaps a set of early research buildings that require certain features or improvements or bonuses to be present locally. (representing everyone scavenging for supplies and fixing what they find)

    Those are all just quick ideas, but if the next steps up require more advanced improvements or situations to be beneficial, you may hold off changing for a long time, or if you have a lot of the required points to make use of those civics you may stay on one or more of them for a very long time.
     
  16. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Other things we could do, particularly with starting civics is have them cancel out or reduce negative effects from each other.

    So for example we could have it that survivalism gives +1-2 food per citizen (Creating a zero price for pop costs for each citizen you have, quite powerful for early growth) but a -50% Science/Culture/etc. output (as everyone is busy getting food).

    Then Scavenging gives +50% Science so that you don't lose all your science in the beginning which would stagnate the game. (makes sense because everyone is out and about looking for food they can pick up cool items too.)

    But if you move from Scavenging to whatever, but remain in Survivalism, society suddenly becomes massively inefficient at science. (Because everyone is still out getting food but ignoring all the trinkets on the ground).

    This might mean that you want to stay 'unevolved' while you push up your population a little higher and get those gardens in place and get some early military units built. Then make the science and economy jump at the same time to avoid stagnation and move on to the next phase of development.
     
  17. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

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    I think food is way too powerful, at least in the vanilla game, to give normal specialists the ability to make it. At least without any type of stipulations. RFC Dawn of Civilization has a civic which allows specialists to produce food but the amount of specialists that produce food is capped at something.

    I think a similar cap would work here and make sense. Even if everyone is looking around for food there is only so much food that you are going to find without actually producing it.
     
  18. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Well, we don't have a feature to cap specialists through civics.

    We can unlock unlimited specialists, but not make a cap.

    Except by having a building that allows X specialist of the desired type, (don't think citizens can work like that) [We could however have a food gatherer type with attendant buildings (I already want 'farmer' and 'rancher' types eventually)] and these buildings have suvivalism as a prereq.

    Some 'limitations' on the power of food now exist, such as the fact that units consume pop. and also many units can (or will when properly balanced) require a high city population in order to be built. Same for Buildings (not the consumption part).

    The limitations on the speicifc civic, were as I said the risk of stagnation, you would need a massive empire to counteract the survivalism drag on your science. (at least when properly balanced). It doesn't matter if you have a pop. of 1000 if it is going to take 700 turns to get out of the ancient era. (bit exagerrated maybe).

    The other downside of changing out of suvivalsm is the fact that some large cities may suddeny starve down as the land and buildings cannot support them.
     
  19. clanky4

    clanky4 Emperor

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    Not capping the amount of specialists. Capping the total yield the specialists make.

    For example 5 citizen specialists make 5 food and 5 hammers.
    6 citizen specialists make 5 food and 6 hammers.

    Pretty much just capping the amount of food that the specialists can create.
     
  20. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Do you have a link to the mod?

    That would be an entirely new feature that we don't have, it would have to be created from scratch.
     

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