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Civics: Next big change

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by 3Miro, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    After I had a chance to play a few games, I noticed that out Civics are not quite there yet. While they are mostly there, we can see a few notable issues:

    - Government: Republic. Who was a republic during our time period? Only Venice and they were a "Merchant Republic", which is different from "French Revolution Republic". The French Revolution marks more or less the end of the mod (it is one of the main reasons why 1800 was chosen). We should move Merchant Republic to Government.

    - Free Peasantry is OP. Too much too early.

    - Mercantilism is useless, with good contact even between the most distant of civilizations, the extra specialists cannot offset the benefits of Market Economy. Besides Mercantilism historically comes much later.

    - State Religion/Theocracy, both militaristic ... what's the difference.

    Proposed "Overhaul":
    Spoiler :

    Government
    - Feudal Monarchy: +7 Free Units, +1 :crazyeye: with Barracks (early growth an aggression)
    - Divine Monarchy: Draft, +1 :crazyeye: from Military Units stationed in city, +1 :crazyeye: with Castle, +25% Espionage (more advanced militarism, the economy can handle the extra army get a boost in number of units, keep a firm grip on the state)
    - Limited Monarchy: +1 Hammer per town, can spend Gold.
    - Merchant Republic: -25% maintenance for Corps, +25% Gold, +25% Commerce in Capital, +100% war wariness (great for corporations and "peaceful" economy)


    Spoiler :

    Law
    - Feudal Law: +20% Unit production, -50% distance maintenance from distance (decentralized and let the lords take care of the army)
    - Bureaucracy: same as now, good for small Empires.
    - Religious Law: unlimited Priests, lower war wariness, foreign religion unhappy, +2 culture per specialist
    - Common Law: +100% Culture, penalty for players without Common Law


    Spoiler :

    Labor
    - Serfdom: as is now, boost to farms for early growth
    - Free Peasantry: Double Speed for workers, +50% growth of Towns (maybe we can set this one earlier, Code of Laws perhaps)
    - Apprenticeship: +1 Hammer for Workshops, Water and Wind Mills, Unlimited Artists, Merchants, Scientists (big deal in Guild times)
    - Free Labor: +2 Specialist per city (they take care of themselves)


    Spoiler :

    Economy
    - Manorialis: same as now (early growth, Manor House offsets the lack of early trade routes and the farms give an additional boost)
    - Trade Economy: +1 Trade Route (associated with Arabic Knowledge, but no Corp bonus)
    - Guilds: +2 beakers per specialist (this was the dominant model in the high middle age era, it will work well with apprenticeship)
    - Mercantilism: +2 gold form town (this does't remove foreign trade, it mostly taxes it and protects the home economy, it should come around with astronomy)


    Spoiler :

    Religion
    - State Religion: +15% buildings
    - Theocracy: +15% units production, +2 exp to new units
    - Organized: +100% birth Rate (maybe move that to Philosophy)
    - Free Religion: as it is now


    The idea is like this:
    Militarism
    Early: Feudal Monarchy + Feudal Law
    Mid to Late game: Divine Monarchy + Religious Law + Theocracy

    Small Empires
    - Bureaucracy + Merchant Republic
    - Merchant Republic works great with both Trade Economy (for commerce) and Corporations (for gold)

    Gold and Science
    Early: Manorialism plus a boost of production with Serfdom
    Mid: Specialists from Guilds + Apprenticeship (+ Organized Religion), viable even in the late game with late Free Labour
    Late Game: Cottages from Limited Monarchy + Free Peasantry (fast transitions from farms) + Merchantilism
     
  2. The Flame8

    The Flame8 Chieftain

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    I like the changes, but maybe you should have a diplomacy increase for people all with Militarism, small empire, etc, but have a diplomacy penalty for civs with separate. For example small empires have a -1 relationship point added with someone with militarism or gold and science.
     
  3. FakeShady

    FakeShady Chieftain

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    Well i like the moving of Merchant Republic to Government, I fully support the Labor tree, but...

    1) Divine Monarchy. What happened to +1 happy face per military unit? I think this is a very good representation on Divine Monarchy. And having a divine monarchy definitely adds culture to your specialists. Why move the +2 culture per specialist to Religious Law? And why does having a Divine Monarchy increase espionage?!?! i dont think that makes sense IMO. Last but not least... draft?!?! Anyone can draft, not just a Divine Monarchy. Heck, i live in Singapore, a Republic, and they draft us too!!!

    2) I like the new Common Law :D but why +1 unhappy face for other religions who dont have it? Why would, say, a Bureacratic country get jealous of another country that has common law?

    3) Trade Economy too weak. Add in a -25% corporation maintenance cost (basically dont nerf it)

    4) Mercantilism that doesnt remove foreign trade routes is... no mercantilism. I think we need to think of another name for it.

    5) State religion too weak

    6) So since theocracy is the new mega militiristic civic for the Religion tree, Theocratic civs should get + stability for being big.

    7) Organized religion too strong. I say nerf it to 50%

    8) Random, but Imperialism should be buffed :D Vassalage too

    9) Free Labor too weak. Free labor should be the civic that gives unhappy faces to other civs that doesnt have this civic implemented

    Cant wait for future version releases already ^^
     
  4. youtien

    youtien Lyricist

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    I never used divine monarchy in all past games, because: 1. it comes later 2. by the time I would already get enough culture and happy resources. 3. Limited monarchy is nearby.

    Limited monarchy can be moved to constitution, then players would have to build Magna Carta for get it early.

    Disagree with new free labor: only +1 specialist for a late civic? It would be no importance and no help. I suggest keep current bonus or give it +2 gold from towns (or can spend gold, or +1 hammer). And if apprenticeship also helps windmill&watermill, it will overpower mines and be a good choice. Free peasantry could use a nerf, but +50% speed for workers would be enough. Workers are already cheap in this mod.
     
  5. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    I like the new changes as well.

    My issues with changes:
    Free Peasantry: I like the current bonuses but yes it is OP as it comes extremely early. I think it should be second from last (free peasantry then free labor) and be kind of a mid-late game civic (like how state property is late game, but not as late as environmentalism, and depending on your style you may never get environ, just as free peasantry may not necessarily be replaced by free labor). Sorry for the weird rant there but my point is that it should be bumped to printing press or a similar tech rather than nerfing it.
    State Religion: missionaries without requisite building (including protestant!) especially with the build nerf (25 to 15)
    Government Civics Honestly have to be changed, I NEVER use divine or feudal (except for stability). Free units, happiness, and espionage are really not that useful (unless you are the super spy). *And by the way, the swiss governments were quasi-republic*
    Free Market?: I think there should be a civic coming from the free market tech, be it capitalism or free market something or another, it should be like the replacement of merchant republic but late game. Perhaps -50% corp maintenance and +50% trade route yield (yield is more important than 1 extra trade route once u get custom houses, so better later). The new mercantilism is OP in my opinion. +2 gold but no drawback? sounds just like free peasantry... I think +2 town but high upkeep (something you haven't included) and -1 trade. that seems like a fair trade to me, I would probably still use it exclusively.
    Apprenticeship Perhaps change the watermills and windmills to no bonus (replaceable parts gives a bonus, so either change that or this) and include unlmt engineers as well (maybe change unlmtd artists to included in free religion or another civic).
    Everything else is solid, good job.
    One more thing, does anyone ever actually use vassalage? I never used in RFC or RFCE.
     
  6. FakeShady

    FakeShady Chieftain

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    Suggested last civic for Economy:

    Protectionism: All luxury resources produce +1 extra happy face

    I dont know whats the logic behind this but this is exactly how Protectionism is implemented in Civ5. Just a suggestion
     
  7. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    The names for the religious civics should change. State religion or organized religion, whats the difference? A mod that centers on religion should be more specific what we are talking about.
     
  8. rob85

    rob85 Chieftain

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    More importantly, the Netherlands also were a republic. So were many other German and Italian city-states.
    About mercantilsm, +2 gold from towns isn't that much. With slower growth for free peasantry and the plague lowering all towns immediately into cottages...
     
  9. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    Looks much more rational, but are you sure you want to add the x-mill hammers at guilds, production boost is going to be insane.
    Perhaps a drawback to go with Apprenticeship to balance it out .. I already have wet dreams of a Feudal Theocratic Frederick with unlimited scientists and happily spinning waterwheels across the width and breadth of the map :D
     
  10. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I like the suggestions of 3Miro, but with some small changes:

    - Free Labor is too weak. If it is a late civic, maybe 2 Free specialist would work.
    - Trade Economy can use a +50% trade route yeild. Otherwise, it's too weak IMO.
    - Mercentialism should realy stay something that doesn't allow foreign trade routes and corps. Then it also can use the +2 :commerce: from towns.

    @ 3Miro

    As most (if not all) of this is XML, shall I do these changes? (When the final list is complete ofcourse)
     
  11. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    For the new Civics, we also have to know which upkeep the techs should have and with which tech it should be aviable.
     
  12. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    I forgot to add the + happy from military units in the city. This goes to Divine Monarchy.

    The penalty for foreign trade routes is horrific. A domestic trade route gives +2 commerce max. A foreign one gives +5, +6 commerce easily. With +2 from towns, you need 4 - 5 towns per city just to offset the penalty.

    The Dutch can be a Merchant Republic, I think the Swiss will do fine with Limited Monarchy.

    We can move the Unlimited Priests to Organized Religion, Religious Law gets to build Missionaries w/o Monasteries. Organized Religion gets +50% Birth rate.

    Moving Free Peasantry to printing press is a good idea.
     
  13. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    ok so lets change these for 8 and then reconvene.

    Ideally, each civic is useful in a certain set of situations and isn't overused or OP. We'll have to test and see.

    Also can we get some sort of chart saying the different stability things with civics, cus thats still a mystery to me.
     
  14. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Didn't free peasantry type stuff start after the black death?
     
  15. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    In the West yes, in the East, that was the model for the most part. Serfdom was rarely used east of Hungary.
     
  16. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    I thought the east was a lot more backward. I remember reading in history books that russia was basically in serfdom until the early 1900s. is that just completely false?

    Also Austria didn't "free" its peasantry officially until like the 18th century if I remember correctly (maria theresa)
     
  17. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    This is true for Russia, but serfdom practically did not exist in Bulgaria, Byzantium or Kiev (not sure about Hungary). People owned their own land and the nobility started to take over only after the Mongol invasion.
     
  18. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    We can make Mercantilism give "no foreign trade-routes" and offset the penalty by adding +2 commerce per market and +5 commerce for Customs House (high taxes on trade).
     
  19. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Russia abolished serfdom in 1861, but similar condition continued until the 20th century. AH in 1848.

    I was wrong when I said the Black Death caused it, it was already on the decline before. In France serfdom was de facto finished by ~1318 Anno Domini.

    After the Renaissance serfdom started in Central and Eastern Europe while disappearing in Western Europe.
     
  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Knight of Time Moderator

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    Without veering too much into history again, the gradual abolishment of serfdom in Western Europe had more to do with growing urbanization and the desire of the monarchy to weaken its nobles by desintegrating the feudal system in their desire for more centralization.
     

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