Civics: Next big change

[merijn_v1]

@ 3Miro

I have a test version of the new Civic system. It has all changes of post 1 and 12. (and some small changes I made) The only thing that can't be done with XML is the +20% unit production (for Feudal Law) and the extra commerce for markets and custom houses (for Mercentialism)

This new Civic system conflicts with the dynamic name system, so I won't upload it (for now).

 

[3Miro]

@ 3Miro

I have a test version of the new Civic system. It has all changes of post 1 and 12. (and some small changes I made) The only thing that can't be done with XML is the +20% unit production (for Feudal Law) and the extra commerce for markets and custom houses (for Mercentialism)

This new Civic system conflicts with the dynamic name system, so I won't upload it (for now).

Wow, I wanted to sleep on this for a little longer, but I do think we are close enough to convergence, a few minor changes might be needed afterwards, but not much.

Dynamic civ names are easily changeable, the bigger thing is the commerce/gold bonus from markets and such. I will have to code this properly with XML + C++ as opposed to the Python hack that we have now. Post the XML files here and I will do the necessary changes and upload to SVN.

BTW the +20% unit production speed should be the same as State Religion was in the recent Betas.

 

[merijn_v1]

Not realy. The unit production of the old State religion is only "on" when the State religion is present in the city. I think you meant that the extra unit production should be "on" in all cities, even without a state religion. That isn't possible with the current XML.

 

[3Miro]

Not realy. The unit production of the old State religion is only "on" when the State religion is present in the city. I think you meant that the extra unit production should be "on" in all cities, even without a state religion. That isn't possible with the current XML.

Yes, that makes sense. I will fix that.

 

[merijn_v1]

Here is the civicinfos.xml file. (if you need it.) It also has the related text file in the package.

 

[3Miro]

Here is the civicinfos.xml file. (if you need it.) It also has the related text file in the package.

Thanks, this will take me some time, but I will have it done today. I will have to change both Civics and Buildings XML schemes, so don't make any more changes until I update those. I will try to get the dynamic civ names as well.

 

[Science Rules]

How about making Mercantilism's commerce bonus dependent on the number of colonial projects built? Instead of having the Custom House provide a flat +5 gold benefit, make it +1 gold per colony.

 

[3Miro]

merijn_v1: I am fixing Venice and the Stability for the new Civics. You will have to clean up the XML text a little.

I have a few notes for everyone interested:

- We should revisit some of the starting Civics for the different civs. For example, Moscow should start with Feudal Monarchy and Feudal Law (Poland has those 400 years earlier). I also think the Dutch should be a Merchant Republic.
- I don't like it when a tech gives two Civics at once, especially when it clutters the tech. Lets move Apprenticeship from Guilds to Education.
- Mercantilism comes too early, we need to push it around the time of the Printing Press. Maybe add another tech to that tier, it has only 4 anyway. What do you think?
- What do you think about moving Serfdom to Vassalage, Feudal Law and Monarchy come with Feudalism.
- Move Organized Religion to Philosophy (more fitting for the new bonus that it gives)
- Do you think Theocracy is right for Arabic Knowledge, or in other words, do we have any Christian nations using Theocracy before the Printing Press (also, note the difference between the common-place Religious Law and the more aggressive/oppressive Theocracy)
- Merchant Republic should give +25% generic-commerce in all cities and +25% gold in capital (trade routes give commerce and they exist in all cities, corporations are centered in one city and they give gold)

EDIT: just forgot to edit the changelog, will do the next commit, read the comment on the commit, it explains what I did.

 

[FakeShady]

If the Dutch can start with Merchant Republic, then Venice needs a new UP dont u think

 

[civ_king]

If the Dutch can start with Merchant Republic, then Venice needs a new UP dont u think

No because Venice gets it before the tech is known

 

[FakeShady]

No because Venice gets it before the tech is known

hmmm thats true.

By the way im a little curious to know, what does common law have anything to do with increased culture output? How does it make civs with no common law jealous? What does having an organized religion have anything to do with increased great people birth rate?

IMO Divine Monarchy should be the culturemonger's civic. Agree?

 

[ezzlar]

In general I would like the oppressive civics to give: exp, military happiness, hammers

More liberal civics: commerce, gold, trade routes

The religious ones: great people, culture

 

[ezzlar]

Government
- Feudal Monarchy: +7 Free Units, +1 with Barracks (early growth an aggression)
- Divine Monarchy: Draft, +1 from Military Units stationed in city, +1 with Castle, +25% Espionage (more advanced militarism, the economy can handle the extra army get a boost in number of units, keep a firm grip on the state)
- Limited Monarchy: +1 Hammer per town, can spend Gold.
- Merchant Republic: -25% maintenance for Corps, +25% Gold, +25% Commerce in Capital, +100% war wariness (great for corporations and "peaceful" economy)

Divine monarchy should cap at 2 or 3 happiness for military, pref 2, and remove espionage bonus. Maybe "Plutocracy" instead of "Merchant republic"? We could also call "Limited monarchy" "Constitutional monarchy"? +25% gold seems a bit OP, maybe +15% as the other production bonuses? Instead of the war weariness penalty +1 gold per unit is better, happiness is not a factor in this mod


Law
- Feudal Law: +20% Unit production, -50% distance maintenance from distance (decentralized and let the lords take care of the army)
- Bureaucracy: same as now, good for small Empires.
- Religious Law: unlimited Priests, lower war wariness, foreign religion unhappy, +2 culture per specialist
- Common Law: +100% Culture, penalty for players without Common Law

Remove unit production from Feudal law, its already in religious civics. Give +3 exp, the requirement to always provide troops for the king. Religious law should be nerfed to +1 culture per specialist. Common law should give -50% number of cities and -25% distance to palace, the rule of law decreases maintenance costs, and keep the penalty for others

Labor
- Serfdom: as is now, boost to farms for early growth
- Free Peasantry: Double Speed for workers, +50% growth of Towns (maybe we can set this one earlier, Code of Laws perhaps)
- Apprenticeship: +1 Hammer for Workshops, Water and Wind Mills, Unlimited Artists, Merchants, Scientists (big deal in Guild times)
- Free Labor: +2 Specialist per city (they take care of themselves)

A free peasantry should boost the lowest forms of cottages, not the town ones. Free labor, a bit too OP. How about +10% hammers, economy is more effective?

Economy
- Manorialis: same as now (early growth, Manor House offsets the lack of early trade routes and the farms give an additional boost)
- Trade Economy: +1 Trade Route (associated with Arabic Knowledge, but no Corp bonus)
- Guilds: +2 beakers per specialist (this was the dominant model in the high middle age era, it will work well with apprenticeship)
- Mercantilism: +2 gold form town (this does't remove foreign trade, it mostly taxes it and protects the home economy, it should come around with astronomy)

Guilds would be enough with +1 beaker just like the +1 hammer bonus

Religion
- State Religion: +15% buildings
- Theocracy: +15% units production, +2 exp to new units
- Organized: +100% birth Rate (maybe move that to Philosophy)
- Free Religion: as it is now

Remove +2 exp bonus, se feudal law

 

[3Miro]

Divine monarchy should cap at 2 or 3 happiness for military, pref 2, and remove espionage bonus. Maybe "Plutocracy" instead of "Merchant republic"? We could also call "Limited monarchy" "Constitutional monarchy"? +25% gold seems a bit OP, maybe +15% as the other production bonuses? Instead of the war weariness penalty +1 gold per unit is better, happiness is not a factor in this mod

- Why remove espionage bonus? Should we remove Espionage altogether, some people use Espionage and we should give them a way to increase their points.
- Plutocracy is an interesting name, maybe we should use it.
- Constitutional Monarchy doesn't fit on the screen, that is the only reason why we use Limited Monarchy.
- We'll see how it works out, but small Empires could use a boost and Merchant Republic is designed for those civs in particular.

Remove unit production from Feudal law, its already in religious civics. Give +3 exp, the requirement to always provide troops for the king. Religious law should be nerfed to +1 culture per specialist. Common law should give -50% number of cities and -25% distance to palace, the rule of law decreases maintenance costs, and keep the penalty for others

- Why do you call Feudal law a "religious" civic? Also, unit production boost is far more valuable than +3exp.
- Religious Law would be the most common Legal civis for the duration of the game, you think +2 culture is OP?
- Good idea for Common Law.

A free peasantry should boost the lowest forms of cottages, not the town ones. Free labor, a bit too OP. How about +10% hammers, economy is more effective?

- When I say Growth of Towns, I mean all Cottages, Hamlet, Village and so on. Towns don't grow.

Guilds would be enough with +1 beaker just like the +1 hammer bonus

- one beaker is too little. You get about 3 - 4 commerce from Trade Economy, +2 Gold and some Commerce from Manorialism, Guild should be better than that.

Remove +2 exp bonus, see feudal law

- As in the Feudal Law, +2 exp is useless compared to +x% unit production.

 

[3Miro]

hmmm thats true.

By the way im a little curious to know, what does common law have anything to do with increased culture output? How does it make civs with no common law jealous? What does having an organized religion have anything to do with increased great people birth rate?

IMO Divine Monarchy should be the culturemonger's civic. Agree?

- Common Law - People are free to express ideas and be creative, same as Free Speech in BtS.
- People without common law are upset that they are not give their rights.
- Birth rate for Org Religion is the same idea as Pacifism in BtS.
- Maybe Divine Monarchy can give +50% culture and Common Law can give commerce boost.

 

[Opera]

One thing I'd like is an in-game help-thingy for stability related to civics. It's oh-so-annoying that this is a black-box mechanic, which civics go well together and so on. I know it's supposed to make the player think and all but sometimes it's just too hidden and plain frustrating. Either make tooltips on the civics ("Goes well with X; Doesn't agree with X; Penalty for having X+ cities") or make a concept page in the pedia with the full list.

 

[FakeShady]

- Common Law - People are free to express ideas and be creative, same as Free Speech in BtS.
- People without common law are upset that they are not give their rights.
- Birth rate for Org Religion is the same idea as Pacifism in BtS.
- Maybe Divine Monarchy can give +50% culture and Common Law can give commerce boost.

-Common Law doesn't really give people any freedom to express ideas, free speech does.
-As mentioned earlier, why would people living under a Bureaucracy get jealous of common law? Its not like Religious Law or Bureaucracy restricts people. Common Law "restricts" people in a way too... all in all, i think Free Labor would be a better place to implement the "+1 in civs without it" thing
-Org Religion is not Pacifism, but okay i get the idea...
-I like the Divine Monarchy and Common Law ideas, just please take away the +1 extra cost per military unit thing, pretty please
-With the new stability system, isnt it time to nerf Occupation to +1 stability per city conquered instead?

Overall im actually more of a culturemonger, im hoping either Divine Monarchy+Religious Law or Divine Monarchy+Common Law can be the culturemonger's combo. I hope there are no stability penalties for Divine Monarchy+Common Law

 

[3Miro]

-Common Law doesn't really give people any freedom to express ideas, free speech does.
-As mentioned earlier, why would people living under a Bureaucracy get jealous of common law? Its not like Religious Law or Bureaucracy restricts people. Common Law "restricts" people in a way too... all in all, i think Free Labor would be a better place to implement the "+1 in civs without it" thing
-Org Religion is not Pacifism, but okay i get the idea...
-I like the Divine Monarchy and Common Law ideas, just please take away the +1 extra cost per military unit thing, pretty please
-With the new stability system, isnt it time to nerf Occupation to +1 stability per city conquered instead?

Overall im actually more of a culturemonger, im hoping either Divine Monarchy+Religious Law or Divine Monarchy+Common Law can be the culturemonger's combo. I hope there are no stability penalties for Divine Monarchy+Common Law

- Common law is the closest thing we have to free speech (actually free speech is only one law out of many that we see in a liberal country)
- Bureaucracy vs Common Law ... good point, I will think about it. Bureaucracy is somewhat one city gets it all and it can make other cities unhappy.
- I don't think any civic has +1 cost for military units. I think this is way too restrictive for anyone. If you don't have a decent size army, you are dead.
- Occupation gives +1, I just need to update the text.

 

[ezzlar]

- Why remove espionage bonus? Should we remove Espionage altogether, some people use Espionage and we should give them a way to increase their points.
- Plutocracy is an interesting name, maybe we should use it.
- Constitutional Monarchy doesn't fit on the screen, that is the only reason why we use Limited Monarchy.
- We'll see how it works out, but small Empires could use a boost and Merchant Republic is designed for those civs in particular.

I think espionage should be a bit toned down to fit the character of the mod, industrial tech spionage wasnt that common (I think...). Large empires gains even more from a general +25% gold

- Why do you call Feudal law a "religious" civic? Also, unit production boost is far more valuable than +3exp.
- Religious Law would be the most common Legal civis for the duration of the game, you think +2 culture is OP?
- Good idea for Common Law.

I meant that you had the same bonus in Theocracy, +15% unit production, let the bonus stay there. Give Feudal only +3 exp. As your cities grow large you will have many specialists.

- When I say Growth of Towns, I mean all Cottages, Hamlet, Village and so on. Towns don't grow.

- one beaker is too little. You get about 3 - 4 commerce from Trade Economy, +2 Gold and some Commerce from Manorialism, Guild should be better than that.

- As in the Feudal Law, +2 exp is useless compared to +x% unit production.[/QUOTE]

Guilds will give enough in large cities since you have quite a few specialists.

As for the unit bonus: Theocracy, +15% unit production. Feudalism, +3 exp.

 

[3Miro]

I think espionage should be a bit toned down to fit the character of the mod, industrial tech spionage wasnt that common (I think...). Large empires gains even more from a general +25% gold

I meant that you had the same bonus in Theocracy, +15% unit production, let the bonus stay there. Give Feudal only +3 exp. As your cities grow large you will have many specialists.

Guilds will give enough in large cities since you have quite a few specialists.

As for the unit bonus: Theocracy, +15% unit production. Feudalism, +3 exp.

- Espionage is somewhat broken in Civ in general. I will think on how it can be improved.
- Merchant Republic comes with Stability penalty for having too many cities. This should be used with small Empires only.
- In general the +X exp is not very useful, especially compared to additional early Anarchy. Theocracy comes considerably later. Warmongering players should use Feudal Law early on and later switch to Religious Law + Theocracy.
- +1 for guilds is weak. How many cities do you have with 4 or more specialists (note that Free Labor comes rather late)