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Civics: Next big change

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by 3Miro, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yep, there is maintenance cost from city number and from city distance
    If you want it to give disadvantage to bigger civs only, keep the city distance maintenance low and have extra upkeep only on the city number maintenance.
    It may even be more than +100% if you want to see only the tiniest civs with Merchant Republic
     
  2. FakeShady

    FakeShady Chieftain

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    Its not the "tiny" civs that should get it, its the tiny naval city-states that should be getting it, and they often have many cities too
     
  3. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    ok heres what it would do shady, i think youre getting confused.

    It would increase per city maintenance, not distance from capital maintenance, so cities with lots of trade and medium to low number of cities (venezia, genoa, dutch, portugal) would benefit greatly. England, France, Norse, or a few other mostly coastal cities could still benefit but would get hurt by the increased city maintenance (so useful but not as much as for those civs). A civ like Moscow really wouldnt work well (low open borders, no coastal so no trade there, lots of cities).

    Another thing is it could be a high increase of city maintenance for any cities after say the first 6 cities (about what venezia gets). I'm not sure that could be implemented in code
     
  4. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    Review of the new civics. They feel a bit unbalanced. Some are really good while others are almost useless. And the new tougher requirements makes your possible combinations limited.

    Government:
    - Feudal monarchy, some hapiness and free units. Weak, not useful
    - Divine monarchy, hapiness, spy points, drafting. Average, together maybe useful but none on its own
    - Limited monarchy, Ok, but shows up late
    - Merchant republic, Great, but shows up late and by then you probably have more than 5 cities

    So government is overall weak.

    Legal:
    - Feudal law, -50% distance costs, +20% unit production. Great, all those early conflicts but limited use of the distance bonus. You are probably small in the beginning.
    - Bureaucracy, good for those small empires.
    - Religous law, war weariness bonus, specialist culture bonus. Weak, no use for culture. Culture borders are easier modified on the fields of battle, and since you win no need for weariness.
    - Common law, big cultural bonus. Weak, no use

    Legal is also weak, feudal the one really useful unless playing small empire.

    Labor:

    - Serfdom. That hammer bonus, ok if you dont need any more great people. Or cottages.
    - Free peasantry, great but shows up late.
    - Apprenticeship, weak, production bonus to improvements you dont build anyway
    - Free labor, great, I really like

    Labor is far better than the two first civics but still kinda linear. You could start up with serfdom, when game progresses you switch to free peasantry to build cottages and grow them up and finally change to free labor for that nice specialist bonus. No hard choices, just go with the flow.

    Economy:

    - Manorialism, Great, now those farms are really useful. And manor house. And maybe serfdom once you popped the 1-2 GP you need.
    - Trade economy, Great, but either late game civic or playing muslim.
    - Guilds, Great for the empire with large cities
    - Mercantilism, Great for the large empire with much grassland

    A very strong civic. You will start with manorialism then change to guilds or mercantilism. If you have grasslands you can go farms for big cities with guilds bonus or you could go cottages and mercantilism bonus. But if you cant go for grasslands with farms you can neither go for cottages since you usually lack the food. Feels a bit rigged for France and Germany.

    Religion:

    - State religion, great, +25% for buildings
    - Theocracy, +25% units and +2 exp. OP? I will start Cordoba with feudal law and theocracy and get some faith points. That means unit production +45%, +2 exp and +X% muslim faith point bonus for unit production. 1 barracked stable theocrazied knight/turn each big city? Imagine Ottomans...
    - Organized religion, +100% great people. Great for getting those GP.
    - Free religion, ok, but comes late

    A very strong civic. But theocracy is kinda muslim only so I will probably go for state religion until I get Arabic knowledge. I usually dont need that many GPs anyway.

    Expansion. No comments, just pick the one that suits your expansion style.

    Overall some branches are very strong while some are very weak. And they are clearly divided by "early" civics and "late" civics. I think the freedom of choosing between different combinations is gone. Its one way to go until you get enough techs and then there is another given choice.

    Improving Government and Legal would probably solve those problems.
     
  5. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    Yeah I agree government and legal are very meh.
    Playing as Spain I just got divine monarchy and religious law for the stability bonus. These weren't great and the rest aren't anything special. Divine monarchy seemed to be a big grouping of a bunch of rather useless stuff: drafting, espionage, small happiness boost. I didn't need really any of them as I had notre dame, no need for spying really, and I dont ever draft.

    I'm quite happy with labor, its clear cut and makes sense. I went from serfdom to apprenticeship. Apprenticeship is actually quite good as Spain. I use a ton of windmills (Madrid for example) and some watermills, like in Sevilla (my super production city). Good to balance with guilds for the stability. I used hanseatic league (I love it!) which went really well with guilds too.

    I just stuck with state religion, I like having that +25% for buildings (I'm a building whore), wasn't in a bad enough war situation to use theocracy.

    I agree it could be OP for muslim nations definitely, but remember there's always unit upkeep and stability to deal with, its not like vanilla where if you a large enough army you can just conquer anything. Is it high? (it seems appropriate to have it be high)

    Organized meh. I only see it really being useful for like a smallish empire that has lots of food: France, Burgundy, Genoa, Venezia, Dutch, Norse are some but for a large nation like Spain its just not really practical (that high puts me off especially)

    I like the new system its a good deal better but I think some of the civics need to be spiced up. Labor, Economy, and maybe religion are good to go.
     
  6. Daffy

    Daffy Chieftain

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    Divine Monarchy is quite nice, given the right circumstance :)

    Military unit = +1 happiness
    drafting = +1 unhappiness + 1 unit - 1 population

    you can create quite a few 'free' units that way if you have a few quick growing cities that lack production
     
  7. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    OK.

    Beta9 with the new civics has now been played a lot and I am at a loss as to who/why/when anyone would ever opt for Free Peasantry.

    It just doesn't really do anything (and comes late) that is not done better with the guild/apprenticeship combo ..
    By the time it is available the cities are pretty much maxed out size-wise so switching farms out will cost a few hundred million souls :D

    Who benefits from it?
     
  8. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Not if you do it right after a plague. The idea of FP is to use it and switch from App + Guilds to Mercantilism. Although, Mercantilism right now is probably too weak.
     
  9. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    yeah I'd rather use App + Guilds anyday.

    I'm thinking a mine upgrade is in order.

    Here's the progression of hills for me

    1. Build mines (no windmills)
    2. Windmills introduced, build mills only when the food is necessary (madrid)
    3. Replaceable parts, build mills when extra food is better than extra production
    4. Apprenticeship, only build mills.

    I'm thinking mines should get a +1 under replaceable parts.
     
  10. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    Well I am glad I am not the only one feeling that its a bit 'meh'.

    I know when and how it should be used, but it is such an incredibly small niche/window that only opens when you already have a specialist/food economy going with an enormous hammer output.

    Try a German or French game, the big daddys of the cottage from Beta8 .. now do mills (wind/water) and farms everywhere and you get much better production and the same gold as merc-peasant over time plus you have the faster city development and specialists coming out of of your ears .. maddeningly strong combo.
     
  11. youtien

    youtien Lyricist

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    The problem is: we play early / mid game nearly all of the time. Tech and civics beyond astronomy seldom have usage and importance. For early civs, by the time of Renaissance, you are already the #1 power; for late civs, your UHV needs no late civics either. (Austria: conquer & diplomacy ; Ottoman: pure conquest; Swedish: still conquest; Dutch: GP and diplomacy)

    And AI is still not aggressive enough, so it is hard to find out if it is balanced.
     
  12. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    Well yeah, I don't know if this totally blows away the cottage economy though. With Farm + Mills, you can only have super mills or super farms (feudal stuff or app + guilds). Even if you have super mills and have like 20 extra food lets say, you can't actually get more than like 5 specialists because of health and happiness restrictions. And at that point you might be better off with super towns, though those comes way too late to serve any good. (pretty much only useful for England, France, Germany, Dutch)
     
  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    HHG, i searched this thread for you
    This is how the civic bonuses should be set
    (there may have been some small changes since, but I don't remember any big overhauls)
     
  14. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Current bonuses based on the civicinfos.xml:

    Despotism: low upkeep
    Feudal Monarchy: low upkeep, 7 free units, +1 happy with barracks
    Divine Monarchy: high upkeep, 2 draft, +25% esp, +1 happy with castle, +1 happy per military unit stationed in the city
    Limited Monarchy (Constitutional Monarchy): medium upkeep, can hurry production with gold, +1 production per town
    Merchant Republic: medium upkeep, -25% corp maintenance, +25% gold, +25% gold in capital, +100% war weariness

    Tribal Law: low upkeep
    Feudal Law: low upkeep, -50% city distance maintenance, +20% unit production
    Bureaucracy: high upkeep, +50% production and +50% commerce in capital
    Religious Law: medium upkeep, -25% war weariness, +1 unhappy for non state religions, can train missionary without monastery, +2 culture per specialist
    Common Law: medium upkeep, +100% Culture, penalty for players without Common Law

    Tribalism: low upkeep
    Serfdom: medium upkeep, -33% great people, -50% improvement upgrade rate, farm +1 production
    Free Peasantry: low upkeep, +100% worker speed, +100% improvement upgrade rate
    Apprenticeship: medium upkeep, unlimited artist, scientist, merchant, +1 production to workshop, windmill, watermill
    Free Labor: low upkeep, +2 free specialist per city

    Decentralization: low upkeep
    Manoralism: high upkeep, -1 trade route per city, +2 gold for manor house, +1 commerce to farm
    Trade Economy: low upkeep, +1 trade route per city
    Guilds: high upkeep, +2 beakers per specialist
    Mercantilism: medium upkeep, no foreign trade, no foreign corporations, +5 gold for market, +2 commerce to town

    Paganism: low upkeep, +1 happy to pagan shrine
    State Religion: low upkeep, can have state religion, +25% building production in cities with state religion
    Theocracy: medium upkeep, can have state religion, +25% unit production and +2 exp in cities with state religion
    Organized Religion: high upkeep, can have state religion, +100% great people, unlimited priest
    Free Religion (Religious Tolerance): no upkeep, can have state religion, +1 happy in cities with state religion, allow non state religion buildings, +10% science

    Subjugation: low upkeep
    Vassalage: medium upkeep, bonus stability for each vassal
    Imperialism: high upkeep, bonus stability for each city founded outside core area
    Occupation: medium upkeep, bonus stability on city conquest
    Colonialism: high upkeep, bonus stability for each colony
     
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Additionally, there are the stability related things:
    the exact bonuses for the expansion branch
    bonuses/penalties for different civic combos
    You can check those in the stability guide

    Anyway, we can have some changes in the civics, but only after careful consideration
    Before anyone suggests big changes, read through the last four pages

    I for example agree with the opinion, that the first 2 branches should be strengthened
    Also, the best civic combos shouln't be linear through a game, the goal is to have valid alternatives for different situations
    And one exact suggestion: I feel Theocracy is ovepowered. Maybe we should reduce the unit production bonus
     
  16. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    Nice stuff, never ventured myself on reading those XMl files before (I don't understand much anyway), but my curiosity on this makes it a nice time spent. Reading those Stability fields on that civicinfos file, it was easy to see which fields were being applied to each Expansion Civic, but when it came to Colonialism in the end no field had a 1 to bonus stability, as you could see in all others (except for Subjugation of course). So my curiosity couldn't stop me from asking you guys who understand this language where is the field which gives colonialism a bonus stability for colonies?
     
  17. HolyHandGrenade

    HolyHandGrenade Holy Pin

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    when crosschecking with RFC I assume STRATEGY should not hold exact values, just a direction, so we should consider rewriting the STRATEGY parts with these exact values as a base...
     
  18. HolyHandGrenade

    HolyHandGrenade Holy Pin

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    I agree totally and I promis not to change anything here regarding balance without feedback :blush:.
     
  19. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Most attributes for the expansion civics are set in python
    Specifically for Colonialism it's under the onProjectBuilt function in the stability.py
     
  20. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I don't know if these suggestions are better than what RFCE already has, but they are just my opinions.

    Despotism:
    -30% city maintenance cost from distance to palace.
    Gradually becomes less stable with more cities (like with bureaucracy civic now).
    Military units made with food (Maybe it would better with Tribal Law, feudal law in place of +20% unit production, or Tribalism if it was going to be used at all). It would help early civs that don't have productive cities at the expense of growth.

    Rename Bureacracy to Nobility with complete new effects at high or medium upkeep:
    +25% wealth and production in capital city (rather than 50%).
    Specialists +2 gold.
    +15% great birth rate in all cities (somewhere between 10% and 30%).
    Requires Aristocracy tech instead of civil service, so it's available earlier on.
    Nobility sounds better for a mod that has a great deal of medieval history in my opinion. Because of the stability city limit under bureaucracy, not too many civs can utilize the civic. Novgorod's UP had to be adjusted to use it and accomplish the fur UHV.

    Merchant Capitalism:
    +100% unit maintenance cost.

    Guilds:
    +15% city maintenance cost (somewhere between 10% and 30%).
    Corporate maintenance halved. (Will companies have maintenance costs?)
    Guild hall building has +1 production or +1 gold?

    Mercantilism: remove no foreign trade routes and add:
    no "local" trade routes instead, so all trade routes from a city must be with foreign cities (I don't know if this is better fore gameplay or not).

    Remove organized religion and replace with "Monasticism." I never understood the term "organized religion" as compared to state religion or theocracy...
    Upkeep lowered to low, and requires Monasticism tech.
    +50% great person birth rate in cities with state religion.
    Unlimited priests
    Monasteries produce +1 happiness?
     

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