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Civics: Next big change

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by 3Miro, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    One thing is sure. Civics needs an adjustment.
     
  2. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Despotism's suggested instability from number of cities could change by age, but I wouldn't expect many civs other than early ones to use it.

    My main concern for suggesting military units produced with food is that a civ could make a giant army very fast (like Germany) especially with Feudal Law's +20% unit production. It also might mess with Kiev's UHV if it's used in Feudal Law, and military unit costs might have to be raised.

    The guild hall bonus under guilds could be raised to +2 gold, production, or culture.

    Organized religion or Monasticism in my idea, could keep the 100% great person birth rate
     
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I think I will move the unhappiness with non-state religions (thus also some instability) from Religious Law to Theocracy.
    IMO it fits better, and Religious Law is kinda underpowered anyway.
     
  4. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    They're virtually the same thing, but it's probably better to have it under theocracy.

    Is there any reason why Common Law has a +100% culture bonus? I just found it odd, partly because I don't play late games.
     
  5. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    These are my ideas what to change:

    Government:
    Despotism...+25% production in Capital -25% cost distant to Palace, +1 unhappiness in each city
    F.Monarchy...its ok.
    Divine Mon....comes a bit late, esp bonus i dont understand why, never use it, no need
    Const. Mon....very late no real bonus picky in stability with other civics
    Merchant Rep...good but come a bit late and too big penalties to use as normal size country

    Legal:
    Tribalism...give nothing?! imo +1 happy/city stable with 4 or less city. more than 4 big penalty
    Feudal Law...its ok
    Bureaucracy...Pointless, bad bonus, expensive and you are always bigger than its limit, very situational
    Religious Law...worse than FL so pointless
    Common Law: It comes so late, that you cannot use it in substance.

    Labor:
    Tribalism....same name, no bonus, It would be cool if in it a city could help build other city's unit/building with some handicap.
    Serfdom...early must have
    Free Peasant....too late no real plus, pointless
    Apprenticeship... awsome production must have for long games
    Free labor....idk never tried

    Economy:
    Decentralisation....nothing
    Manorialism...must have with lots of irrigation
    Trade economy....not bad but way too late for Europe
    Guilds...seems bad, and expensive but never used
    Mercantilism...The final solution to raise research from 60-70% to 80-90-100%

    Religion:
    Paganism...ok, it have no perspective and that good for gameplay, bad for my feelings
    State Rel....solid civic
    Theocracy...Good civic but very late for Europe
    Org Religion...ok, expensive, only if your cities are up and no need to build a lot but others civics still far
    Religious Tol....very good and unique, give +stability in every case :D

    Expansion:
    Subjugation...nothing should give stability for peace like +1/ 20 turns of peace
    Vassalage... Pointless others give more
    Imperialism...ok expensive or pece time
    Militarism...best choice for most civ
    Colonialism...only for the Dutch imo
     
  6. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I think the +1 unhappiness in each city would be best for Tribal Law, but that might hurt early civs. The more than four city penalty would hurt other early civs like Cordoba, Bulgaria, and Arabia too.

    The +25% production for despotism would be overpowering, especially with the current bureaucracy civic if anyone used it. A +50% great general emergence (within cultural borders?) suits despotism well as a possible option with reduced distance maintenance.

    Just to note, the Feudalism civic combo is the dominant strategy for most players. Feudal monarchy, Feudal Law* which is overpowered by the +20% IMO, vassalage, manorial ism, and serfdom* give a lot of stability together and their production* bonuses are high.

    Does anyone think military units made with food should replace Feudal Law's +20% production bonus? To me this would at least provide a trade off between production and growth.
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    About civics, here is an older thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=344976&highlight=cottage&page=4
    Mostly about farms and penalites/bonuses for them, but has some other interestings as well.

    Btw, I would like to revise the Civics sooner or later (bigger changes will probably come later though), as I also dislike the thing that most combinations are almost always preferable.
    What are the most imbalanced things I should change? I think I will even implement some easier ones for 1.5.
     
  8. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Bazaar give +1 stability with trade economy?
    Feudal law + non-state-religion+church reduce instability?
    Guilds civic cost from high to low ? and/or bonus to merchant rep+guilds
    vassalage and colonialism pointless/useless. I cannot imagine any case where u use them, except the dutch.
    but if you have 3+ vassals you'd better with imperialism...
    org rel should be the early rel tolerance ei -1 instability for a nonstate rel. ??
     
  9. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I would wait for big changes as well because civics are so tied to stability right now, which still needs improvement (swings quite a bit for me). You can lower the stability bonus of matching civic combinations, but with stability as it is now that may hurt gameplay. Penalty and bonus tweaks for now I guess.

    I think the dominant strategy of "Feudal" civics can be mitigated by taking away Feudal Law's +20% unit production bonus and possibly replacing it with the: "military units created with food" option. This provides a trade off and keeps cities relatively smaller (which is more historically accurate to me), but if unit production is too high from this then another Feudal civic (like manorialism) can have the -5% food in each city effect. That balances, right?

    Another possibility is to have an alternative to the feudal civic choices early on because there are no alternatives available. I suggested removing bureaucracy (which is hardly used) with "Nobility" with an extra great person bonus; and removing organized religion with "Monasticism" to have a small happiness bonus for monasteries with the old bonuses.

    Tying stability to the economy by means of "Decentralization" and/or "Trade Economy" may help. No penalty for a bad economy for the first, and increased stability for a good economy but lower for a bad economy under the latter. I don't know how the game measures economic performance though...
     
  10. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    I like giving the Bazaar (or even the Market?) +1 Stability when in Trade Economy.

    Overall I think, the existing civics are really well thought out. The problem (aside from stability) is that the (early) Muslim civilisations really don't fit in the Reigious War Category of these civics (Theocracy, Religious Law, Divine Monarchy). These civics are designed for the gameplay of the Spanish imo. In fact, the Muslims allowed the Christians in their territory and the Turks even profitted from them (Janissaries). I feel like their civics should be more centered around Trade Economy.

    In addition, State Religion is vastly superior to Theocracy out of two reasons: 1) In RFC, most buildings are worth building (in comparison to Wealth). You spend a lot of time building buildings. The production boost is more then welcome. 2) In RFC, you don't need a very large army to conquer stuff. Most times it's enough to have one city pumping out units, while the others still produce buildings. Theocracy's mediocre bonuses do simply not justify to switch civics for war.

    Aside from that, I don't understand why Theocracy, Religious Law and Divine Monarchy are centered around the military. They should be centered around your religion and your legitimation as a ruler instituted by God. I could imagine stuff like doubling the Faith Points, stability boosts from religious buildings, maybe even the Bureaucracy bonus could make sense here (would fit for Constantinople, Cordoba, Paris, ...).
    Like that you have bonuses that can compete with the strong feudal civics.
     
  11. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    The lad got a point on the head!
     
  12. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I have a feeling this will be addressed by other changes:

    Would it be a good idea for a civic (Subjugation or possibly Vassalage) to halve the penalty for low culture within a (newly conquered) city? It might help early civs like Arabia, Norway, Bulgaria, etc. who conquer foreign cities quickly or can't build culture. So instead of -2 stability for less than 20% of your culture and -1 for less than 40%, it would be -1 and -.5 or zero. If it works then hopefully it will offer some good alternatives rather than the typical dominant feudal strategy.

    This might overpower vassalage though which has a +2 stability bonus with feudal law. It may also need to be counterbalanced (+1 unhappiness per city, or increased city maintenance)
     
  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Was thinking about this.
    I quite like the idea, and will probably add it to Vassalage.
    The only problem is exactly what you mentioned, don't want to make that civic too powerful compared to the other ones.
    Some additonal ideas? Would love to something more exciting, not just a small penalty to city maintenance.
     
  14. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    Too powerfull compared to the other (labour?) civics or (also) it(s current?)self?

    I really like the idea that throughout your game the scenario offers you different challenges and that the civics are tools to address those.

    The proposed improvement of vassalage seems to address an early challenge (initial instability)

    In stead of besides the bonus also adding a malus to the vassalage civic, I would would recommend considering the improvement (=differerentiation towards other challenges in the game) of the other (expansion) civics.

    Also things can be done to combinations of civics in stead of only the target civic itself.

    ~

    As for other, perhaps more exciting, ideas to balance (an improved) vassalage.

    Unruly Vassals

    Under vassalage the local lords can be headstrong and prone to start conflicts amongst themselves.
    A series of different events (pop up messages) that give a small chance to a bonus but are more costly then beneficial overall.

    (rough) example (for one such message):

    (upon making peace)

    Upon their deprivement of a common foe the local lords of [Cityname X] and [Cityname Y ^ Y is adjacent to X] started quarreling amongst themselves.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

    Placate them by bestowing upon them generous gifts from the spoils of the war with the [Nation Z, previous at war with]. Gift them the baubles.

    (pay n amount of gold ^ n ~ citysize for
    reward: +1 stability (for x turns) and a 10% chance for [free building])
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

    Show them who is boss! Send in the royal troops to restore order.

    (pay m ^ m<n amount of gold and 2 units (from a different location) get moved (transported/teleported) to each of the cities (for a total of four units), 1 turn of disorder, units in can not move for 1 turn, units get damaged (small chance of unit dying) for
    reward: xp for moved units, a couple of great general points (and perhaps a small chance of great general emerging (proportional to the amount of units and xp on lost units (a tally should be kept (off records) to keep track of total 'invenstment'))
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

    Nobility does as nobility wills. Let them duke it out themselves.
    effects: -1 stability (for y turns), small chance for civs to become 2 independent unplayable civs who are at war with eachother but at (unbreakable) peace with everyone else untill one is victorious over the other. After which they return to their previous owner or declare independence (possibly enticing nearby cities to join the revolt)
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

    ~

    on a sidenote

    When under the civic vassalage bestowing lands and titles upon the local lords to placate them (pay gold directly or through upkeep) for additional stability and reduced duration of civic unreast might be an option.

    Similarly under relious law faith points could be spent temporarily for similar effects in cities with both civic unreast and your state religion (spend 10 faith, next turn regain 1 faith, second next turn regain 2 faith, third next turn regain 3 faith, fourth next turn regain 4 faith (for a total of the 10 faith initially spent))

    proposition for additional Arabian Unique Power:
    missionaries can be spent for reduction of 1 turn for civic unrest per missionary (and possibly a +1 increase in faith).

    proposition (maybe tied to Arabian UP):
    missionaries cost half under theocracy.
    (to offset the loss in capacity to produce military units a bit in conjunction to the proposal for the additional Arabian UP)
     
  15. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    Impressive post, Force44! :)
    Vassalage is an Expansion Civic, though. If you make that civic more desirable for Arabia you make all feudal civics more desirable for Arabia. All Arabia wants is good stability which is given by the feudal civics. The starting civics of the Muslim civs seem so much more weak compared to those of the Christian Civs.
    I already wrote about that above.
     
  16. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    @ El Bogus

    Thanks for the feedback, I edited the original post.

    And I agree with your point, vassalage bestowing a stabilitybonus half the stabilitypenalty for foreign culture tips the scales further in favor of vassalage when deciding what expansioncivic to pick whilst playing Arabia.

    That was kind of in the back of my mind when suggesting the faith investment bonus under Religious law & the Arabian UP

    (now that I think of it, when bestowing that new ability to arabian missionaries,it might be an option not to limit that bonus to arabia. From the other two islamic civilizations Cordoba isn't excelling in stability either)
     
  17. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Some potential options... You could:
    Take away the +2 stability with Feudal Law (expansion civics historically only have one basic bonus anyway.
    Give the bonus to subjugation (provides more options).
    Add a +50% war unhappiness penalty
    Add a -5% food in each city penalty (I prefer this for manorialism to cut back on Feudal Law).
    Add -1 trade routes, so trade routes would be down to zero (overkill).
    Add a -10% culture on each city penalty (can be any percentage).

    I prefer the last option because it reduces the culture stability, but it's harder to overcome. A fair trade off to me.
     
  18. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I think I will add it to Subjugation for now.
    Works better to balance the early conquests close to the spawns.
    We need a boost for the Hungarian UP though.
     
  19. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    I was tempted to write a small dissertation on what I consider to be Good UP's and how a boost for Hungarian UP might look like. But for I'll stick to conclusions in this post.

    The current Hungarian UP is related to owning cities with foreign influence.
    The most Obvious way to acquire those is by conquest.
    So a (small) boost in ability to conquer cities would be fitting (gameplaywise).

    The Hungarian infantry in the middle ages was known to be outfitted with an unsual large percentage of gunpowder fuelled firearms.
    So a bonus related to gunpowder would be fitting (lorewise).

    Perhaps the Hungarian infantry could count as gunpowder (in stead of infantry) units and gain the ability to pick upgrades from the drill line.
     
  20. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    After discovery of Gunpowder or Flintlock?
     

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