civics, revolt risks, how to fix this?

[shenryyr]

civics need reworking when it comes to revolt risks.

on this deity game, every single civic we have reduces revolt risks both locally and nationally. democracy, separation of powers, egalitarian, free market, pacifism, secular, socialized, closed borders, and propaganda. cities have zero revolt risk. yet the moment we switch into people's republic, instantly we start getting increasing revolt risks in all our cities, even though people's republic says it also reduces revolt risks just like the old civic(democracy)

so even with every single civic reducing revolt risks, we still get increasing revolt risks. it's really broken.

I keep 10 police in every city(and a police dog), only build buildings that reduce crime, so there is no crime or any instability-causing buildings(like tattoo parlor) in any of my cities. the only thing listed under "bad" for local stability is deity difficulty.

so back to democracy it is. I have no choices in what civics I use.

the revolt risk mechanism needs serious reworking... the red bar climbs and climbs until the city revolts. there is no settling point. you can't just build a tattoo parlor and expect the revolt risk bar to increase a tiny bit (+5 according to the building's info) and then stop there. no, what happens is the bar increases each turn invariably until the city eventually revolts. this is broken!

I really don't want to turn revolution mod off, but what choice is there? my civics are forced, my building choices are forced, essentially we are a civ constructed by the mod's limited(and broken) mechanics.

I would like to be able to switch civics around to become an industrial (hammer) powerhouse. and if war is upon us, I would like to switch civics into a war machine (+expeirence, +unitproduction, +freeunits), of course always at the expense of science and to the detriment of culture, and increased unhappiness, that's to be expected. but we simply can't switch civics. we're stuck in everlasting peace mode with superhigh science, culture, and great person production. not that it's a bad set of civics to be locked into, I'd rather not be locked down.

 

[bill2505]

play on lower difficulty then

 

[Koshling]

play on lower difficulty then

Actually I think Shen has a point here. It's not that you cannot handle it (on deity), it's that doing so massively reduces your choices, and so the available varietry. Mostly this is a late game issue, where late game civics don't provide stability bonuses that early game ones do, and essentially renders them useless.

I don't think the solution is stability increasers on all civics! I think it's stability increasers on later game buildings (which should have other downsides), that you will then need to build in order to utilize slightly less stable civics.

Edit - for example - a (positive) stability modifier on the admin building line.

 

[bill2505]

Actually I think Shen has a point here. It's not that you cannot handle it (on deity), it's that doing so massively reduces your choices, and so the available varietry. Mostly this is a late game issue, where late game civics don't provide stability bonuses that early game ones do, and essentially renders them useless.

I don't think the solution is stability increasers on all civics! I think it's stability increasers on later game buildings (which should have other downsides), that you will then need to build in order to utilize slightly less stable civics.

Edit - for example - a (positive) stability modifier on the admin building line.

i agree but when someone plays one the hardest difficulty where the enemy is extremely buffed or something while you get huge debufs and whining (even if you are right) is a bit

 

[LumenAngel]

Build noble, gie Bard to a defensive units in all cities.
There are a lot of promotion giving reduce chance of revolt.

 

[Koshling]

Build noble, gie Bard to a defensive units in all cities.
There are a lot of promotion giving reduce chance of revolt.

Those promotions have no effect on REV revolts, only on Vanilla BtS style revolts (i.e. - of conquered cities)

 

[Nimek]

for example - a (positive) stability modifier on the admin building line

+1 for that.

Another idea is to add patrol promotions to town watchman line as i proposed before.
Patrol reduces revolt chance

 

[Koshling]

+1 for that.

Another idea is to add patrol promotions to town watchman line as i proposed before.
Patrol reduces revolt chance

See my previous post. 99.99% sure this only works for Vanilla BtS revolt mechanism (of recently captured cities), NOT instability-induced REV revolts.

Since none of us have a good handle on the REV code this will be painful to change, which is why buildings giving stability is a better route.

In an ideal world we'd probably rewrite REV entirely as an in-DLL component using properties for the stability measures, but I don't really see it happening in the short term.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@shenryyr,

Play the Mod with out REV or City Limits and I think you'll like the Mod even better.

And what you've posted about it is what I've been trying to get across for sometime now. REV is Broken. City Limits are artificial. And without either On the Mod is a decent challenge.

The New Civics do need some adjustments but not in dealing with REV or City Limits. They were Not tested thoroughly before implementation. Imho the Old (last set a culmination of many ppls efforts) were better, and even they needed more balancing because the mod is ever-changing.

JosEPh

 

[LumenAngel]

Since none of us have a good handle on the REV code this will be painful to change, which is why buildings giving stability is a better route.

A promotion giving local stability bonus in the city would be hard?

 

[Koshling]

A promotion giving local stability bonus in the city would be hard?

Not too hard. It's probably what we should do (not add new promotions necessarily, but add new tags to allow promotions to do this, then add values to the existing anti-revolt promotions). The hard part of probably the AI for it - whenever you tie city properties to units that part is tricky.

 

[LumenAngel]

But that must bedone for Crime, and maybe for flammability, so... ^^'

 

[Koshling]

But that must bedone for Crime, and maybe for flammability, so... ^^'

Yes, but crime and flammability use the generic property system, so while an analogous set of new AI code (specific to stability) would work, we cannot simply re-use exactly the same code. You're right though, in that the fact we now have the property-control unit AI we at least can base stability control on it.

 

[AIAndy]

I have investigated this issue and I think the problem is actually a one time increase/decrease on civic switch that is only shown over time.
This is the relevant value in the civic info for democracy:
<iRevIdxSwitchTo>-50</iRevIdxSwitchTo>
The same for People's Republic:
<iRevIdxSwitchTo>70</iRevIdxSwitchTo>

Without multipliers that means an increase of the rev index in each city by 120 (and there can be multipliers). When you switch back it is the other way round so your rev index is decreased by a lot. Neither of that is displayed at once but only after some time.

That really needs some changing in the XML to get the iRevIdxSwitchTo values considerably closer to each other.