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Civilization 3: by yankees, for yankees.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by interrupt_00h, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. interrupt_00h

    interrupt_00h Chieftain

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    Civilization 3: by yankees, for yankees.

    I recently bought Civilization 3. That's great game, though lack of ability to choose starting technological level and low flexibility of map editor makes it somewhat boring to play twice. But all historical correctness problems of Civilization series are still here. Come on! Can you people hire some REAL historican? Ancient and Medieval eras are quite correct (though arguable), but Industrial and Modern eras are terrible! Let's make short analysys of inconsistences. First. Communist system of goverment should be named "socialist", and its main advantage is TREMENDOUS, FANTASTIC efficiency of labor - not 100% like in Civilization 3, but approximately 1500%-2000%. Game makers didn't caught the idea of five-year plans. In reality, ONE five-year plan is enough to turn banana-republic into world superpower. That was done twice under Stalin's command (about Stalin: WHY THE HELL HE IS NOT DEFAULT RUSSIAN LEADER???!!! WHY THE HELL LENINGRAD IS RENAMED TO SAINT PETERSBURG???!!!). Democracy DOES NOT give 150% efficiency - NEVER! Just look at modern Russia - change from communist country into democratic country decreased efficiency of labor SEVERAL TIMES! You probably love democracy, but that doesn't give you right to make historically incorrect statements. Second. Jet aviation. F-15 is a bad aircraft. It has EXTREMELY LOW maneurability and speed, comparing to MiG-29M; it locks target 30 TIMES LESS OFTEN, then MiG-29M; it's lock angle is 6 TIMES LESS BROAD, then lock angle of MiG-29M; it's range of fire is 8 TIMES LESS, then range of fire of MiG-29M; BUT IT IS MUCH MORE COSTLY, then MiG-29M! It is just expensive piece of junk compared to Russian counterpart! So, why the hell F-15 is a special unit?! Why not to make MiG-29M a special unit of Russia instead?! Third. Stealth aviation. In real world, Americans are the only civilization to use concept of Russian scientist Ufimtsev (it was Russians who invented stealth technology in 1960ies) in making jet aircrafts (more clever civilizations will use this concept to make stealth inalyots)! In real world, F-117 and B-2 are VISIBLE on Russian radars, and their aerodynamics equals aerodynamics of flying office desk. Why the hell F-117 and B-2 are introduced for all civilizations? And why the hell there is no concept of plasma stealth (Russian MiGs hide from enemy radars by creating plasma field - that is cheaper, more efficient and doesn't hurt aerodynamics at all - moreover, it reduces air friction) in Civilization 3?! Also, why ther is no Russian hypersonic aircrafts (they are much more deadly weapon than ICBM)!? Fourth. Strategic Defence Initiative. Everybody know that it is junk. You can intercept 25% of missiles, NOT 75% (in Civilization 3 SDI intercepts 75% of missiles). Also, why there is no methods to destroy SDI before it is activated? Russians invented many combat spaceships which can destroy SDI in seconds: Almaz, Polyus, Polyot, Skyph, Taran and so on. In reality, process of destroying enemy ICBMs consist of four phases. Phase one: destruction of missiles BEFORE they are launched. That can be done by many methods, but some nuclear silos are hidden, and many of them can endure direct nuclear impact. Phase two: destroy enemy missiles just before the launch. Jet fighters can do it, but they need to be close. Also, some missiles are heavily armored and cannot be destroyed by ordinary weaponry. Phase three: destroy enemy missiles in space. If sattelites are located close to the trajectory of enemy missiles, they can attack them. However, some missiles are heavily armed, and cannot be destroyed with ordinary weaponry, especially with weak lasers. Phase four: destroy enemy missiles in atmosphere. That is VERY hard, because some missiles have several warheads and can launch hundreds of false targets. So, nuclear confrontation is very badly modelled in Civilization 3. Fifth. Tanks. German panzer tanks. Are you guys forgot about Russian T-34 tank which beaten German panzers?! Also, most advanced tank in game looks like M1A2 Abrams. Is Abrams the most advanced tank in real life? DEFINETELY NOT - T-90 beats him! So, summarizing all I have said, this game was done by yankees and for yankees (heh, two of five goverment types are parties in USA - in reality, ONE party with two different names), who do not know history, only cheap propaganda. HIRE SOME REAL HISTORICANS!!! In reality, main problem of Civilization 3 is complete equalization of units. That is wrong. Tanks and aircrafts of scientific civilizations like Germany and Russia will ALWAYS be better then tanks and aircrafts of civilizations like America and Britain. Soldiers and scientists of communist states will ALWAYS be better then soldiers and scientists of republic and democratic states. Wars are not won by economy! Wars are won by engineers and scientists, and fool is the one who think diffirent. Time to understand it. Time to stop reading cheap propaganda books (like ones which tell that F-117 is "efficient" - Saddam Hussein shot one, Miloshevich shot one too (with S-125 - technology of 1950ies!)) and make some REAL historical research. By the way, why minor wonders in Civilization 3 do not include MGU building (build during Stalinism in Moscow) - it is the tallest building on planet build by prisoners (pyramids are much lower), and it is symbol of Soviet education system, which is admitted to be best education system ever. Lenin's mausoleum is also a piece of engineering art. Modern Russia cannot create anything like this. Nevertheless, Civilization 3 is great game. But it could be MUCH better if was based on real history!

    Nevertheless, it is only a game - and a good one, I might add.

    PS: Happy new year to everyone!
     
  2. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    Yes world leaders don't live for 6000 years as well!

    It's only a game, matey, calm down!
     
  3. interrupt_00h

    interrupt_00h Chieftain

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    CurtSibling: You are right, of course. I just noticed that most developed nation in Civ3 will look exactly like USA. That is not quite fair to other cultures like Germany (they had all chances to rule the world if they signed peace with Stalin), Japan (they also had chance to become #1 civ if they get tech from other Axis - especially from Nazi Germany), China (well, they seem to be second superpower in modern world) and, of course, Russia (they had all chances to rule the world, if not Gorbachev and Yeltsin).

    By the way, authors of Master of Orion 3 (another large-scale turn-based strategy game) solved problem with leader's life-span in quite interesting manner. In Master of Orion 3, player is NOT leader of civilization, but "guiding spirit of civilization" - Emperors and Presidents grow old and die like everybody else (however, because game includes 16 different alien nations, authors prefer to call it "career-span" then "life-span").
     
  4. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    Yup every empire has it's day in the sun.
    One day the USA will lose it's power just all the others.
    It's part of the grand design.


    PS
    I like that concept in Master of Orion-III!

    I always thought something like that would be good for Civ!
     
  5. Knowltok 2

    Knowltok 2 Guest

    This guy and Fayedi have got to get together.

    If that were the case, explain how the US outspent a country with more people and more land opperating under a fantastically efficient system.

    I comepletely disagree with this. The jets didn't come in time for the Germans, and they certainly wouldn't have come in time for the Japanese. The V2's wouldn't have had targets. The Japanese were doomed the second the Arizona blew up. They bit off more than they could chew, and grossly underestimated their foes.
     
  6. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    The Japanese were close to economic collapse in 1941.

    Another year and things would have been untenable...

    So what do they do?
    They foolishly attack the one nation who could have Helped them...

    Very silly.

    Germany however had an excellent chance of winning the war.

    Jerry had the best army and airforce in the early part of the war.
    They had superior designs for tanks and jets...
    The men and machines were squandered by an insane despot...

    Had it not been for Adolf's mindless racism and the disastrous attacks on the USSR...

    The USA would be looking at a very evil superpower across the Atlantic. They wouldn't have even got involved in Europe...
    If there had been war it would be a leisurely naval conflict between the Kreigsmarine and USN.
     
  7. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    Have you ever heard of paragraphs?

    Why the hell should it be called Leningrad? it was called that for less than a century, and the original name was St.Petersburg.

    Also, I'm rather pleased that insane butchers aren't given prominance in the game. Sorry if you think differently. I mean why the hell not just have Hitler for the Germans if you're going to have Stalin for The Russians. (Stalin wasn't even Russian, anyway, he was Georgian)
     
  8. CrayonX

    CrayonX Ray of Sunshine

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    I agree with Curt in that Japan did a very silly thing. However, Japan isn't doing that bad nowadays.

    I guess with Civ3 it's scaled down to being "more is better" in all aspects (ie more culture, more cities, more land etc), but you look around today with countries like Switzerland and Singapore who have very little geographically but aren't doing too bad right now in terms of industrialism and commercialism (not considering our current worldwide economical situation, of course).
     
  9. Alcibiaties of Athenae

    Alcibiaties of Athenae Imperator

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    Wrong forum, talk about Civ 3 on the Civ 3 forum.

    Moved from off topic.
     
  10. Knowltok 2

    Knowltok 2 Guest

    The irony is striking. A thread moved out of off topic because it was on topic! I love it. The best part is that AOA is absolutely right, it is "on" topic. :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  11. Candian.Gloworm

    Candian.Gloworm Of The Canadians

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    I thought this game was based on what you made of it (for the most part). The strongest power in any era is what you make of it in the game. Whats the sense of playing if its gonna duplicate history as we know it.

    :crazyeyes :crazyeyes :crazyeyes
     
  12. Jake000r

    Jake000r Chieftain

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    MiG-29M suck ass! F-16... *****
     
  13. 57%

    57% Complete

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    "Soviet Union"? Has there been a re-revolution that I haven't heard about? That one detail makes the whole rant seem like a good joke. ;)



    >interrupt_00h
    >Chieftain
    >
    >Registered: Jan 2002
    >Location: Moscow, Soviet Union
     
  14. Sarcastro

    Sarcastro Warlord

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    Sorry. You had a few good points in that ungodly long paragraph, but this, to me, torpedoes your credibility. In this century (and presumably beyond), wars are most definitely won by economy, and as the Soviet Union lost the "Cold War" solely because it couldn't possibly keep competing with the US economy, you should have known that.

    Battles can be won by engineers and fighting men. Campaigns, even, can be won this way. But wars, my friend, are won by economy. If your nation can build really good weapons, but can't afford to build enough of them, then you will lose every time.

    You cannot possibly separate war from economy as you seem to think you can.

    (edit: whoops, I bet 57% is right. Consider me rueful for falling for it.)
     
  15. Mikoyan

    Mikoyan Digimortal

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    Oh, really? :rolleyes:
     
  16. nklatt

    nklatt Chieftain

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    Since you obviously like to know historical facts (and then go on rants about them, apparently) you should like to know that the pyramids weren't built by prisoners or slaves; they were built by Egyptian workers, possibly farmers during the off-season. They and their families were fairly well taked care of and buried better than most, which was obviously(!) important to ancient Egyptians.
     
  17. Knowltok 2

    Knowltok 2 Guest

    UhOh, now you've gotten his attention, just back away slowly saying things about the quality of soviet aviation and maybe we can get out of here before we have another aircraft debate on our hands.;)
     
  18. Special_O

    Special_O Godlike

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    I agree with him.
     
  19. agent_delphi

    agent_delphi Chieftain

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    Although i don't nessecarily agree with the reasons i do think that the game is over americanised. I think that the earlier eras are much less importent than the modern era (where the americans are dominant in real life), take the industrial era, where the european colonial powers were top dog and america a small back water, in game this is very unimportant, but in world history terms this is very important.

    To be honest America has only been no1 since WWII and the break up of the British (and other european) empires, caused by the financial drain the war put on us until the Americans joined half way through.


    Alot of modern era techs are very american and whilst this is to some degree correct the US's technological supremecy is because of others work, German Rockets, British Radar and Jet Design and British WWII Stealth Prototype design.

    The americans should dominate the latter part of the game tech wise because they did in real life, but Industrial and Future (if added in Civ4) eras should be dominated by Europe.
     
  20. Marzipan

    Marzipan Warlord

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    Well. . . whether you are right or wrong about which weapon systems are better, etc, etc, etc, I think you are right in suggesting that the game is Yankee-centric. It sounds like a mod project for someone to make a collection of modern Soviet weapons (and maybe French and German as well) so a person can use different ones if they like. I'm not sure if it's possible to do, but maybe each civ (other than Russia and America) could be given a modern era weapons association with one or the other. So, for instance, when the Egyptians grow into the modern era, they will choose either Soviet technology or American technology.

    Too bad we can't buy and sell weapons on the bargaining table. Game designers?

    Although it's off this topic, another thing that would be nice to trade is workers. Why can't I send a bunch of workers to a friendly civ, have them work in another country, and send, say, 1 gold back home per worker every turn? Why can't I tell my workers to join a foreign city? That would help in taking over bordering cities through cultural assimilation.
     
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