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Civilization 6 is poor therapy for competitive gamers

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Bibor, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    It is not my intention to presume I can tell anyone how to play this game, however I do feel inclined to comment on something that's been buggin me for quite some time.

    I understand different people communicate in different ways. I'm writing this in hope I'll manage to persuade some to try and think and share thoughts differently.

    Every civ game is different. First, there's the map. Except we share a specific map or scenario, every game will be different. Difficulty level, leaders, terrain, all have a huge effect on how the game will turn out, regardless of your skill level. I think it's pretty safe to presume CIV games will never be 'balanced'. It was never the intention. In fact, you can edit the XML to your hearts desire.

    The most amazing CIV stories come from people that took what they have, and managed to create something new, something different: be it a new idea, new method, new formula, new build order, new circumstance.

    I'm not saying phrases like 'is X good now?', 'X tier', 'meta', 'nerf' that stem from a certain (very stressful) mindset cannot be applied to CIV, but if you are stuck in that loop, you're missing out on everything this game has to offer. What it offers is vastly different from competitive games like the World of Warcraft PVP scene etc. Enjoy it!
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You are right when it comes down to some of the subsets of this forum but not others.
    There is also a large MP community out there that love the game competitively and so you seem to be stuck in the SP mindset.
    So there are subsets of this forum that either because they have played a great challenging civ IV game or a panzer general game in the past want this game to mimic that competitiveness somehow.
    Some subsets complain that the AI is not good enough or the GUI is not ergonomic enough, that the colours are wrong or it is not IRL enough. Firaxis has to try and please a very divergent crowd and I am not jealous of their position.
    What I would point out is the vast majority do enjoy it and part of that enjoyment is talking about it.

    Of the competitive groups, the ones that try and speed up win times often come up with new ways of doing things and never stop surprising me in their thinking and creativeness. But equally although somewhat lacking are immersive stories, I guess they are not so shareable? I quite like reading them though.

    What I am saying is what is clearly stressful to you can be applied to civ VI and is being applied to civ VI. You do not have to read it. I personally just played 90% of my games using one civ, IDC about S tier Civilizations and I really hate the term ‘best’ but I do like the enthusiasm those people have when they talk about them. Am I stuck in a loop? No, I enjoy the game the way I want to, that is what SP is about. But I will not stop using the terms buff and nerf because you disparage them.

    I would hate to think anyone was playing this game and not enjoying it and so am very confused by precisely what message you are trying to send out. We are humans, we are different and it is wonderful we all are.
     
    Jkchart, Elhoim and RohirrimElf like this.
  3. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Anything has a meta; even toilet paper has a meta. The issue is if anyone actually cares or not.

    While many things are subjective, numbers don't lie, so there's only so far as you can interpret them. Some things can be imbalanced and be fun, but at the same time when a choice is decidely inferior unless you make rules up, then one wonders why they should even be better. It's good that things are situational. If they're good 10% of the time, 20% of the time, that's good even if it's not optimal. It's when things become always "wrong" that you just feel like your choices don't matter.

    Which is also good that they're removing Goddess of the Harvest. That thing was RNG based and not a choice; it's basically handed to you and you pick it, or you just don't have it. Also, I would write something passive aggressive about it carrying bad play, but I'll stop. ;)
     
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  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes, glad to see the back of that one. Now get rid of some of the other nasties.
     
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  5. DJ_Tanner

    DJ_Tanner Emperor

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    Certainly the dev main focus is not the MP experience, but most RTS are not focused around the SP experinece and that has never diminished those that exclusively play those from a SP mindset. The game can easily support both playstyles without it being the focal point of the devs. If it is fun for you then you are playing the game "right". And if there are tweaks/features/addons you want to see to assist in making that play more e joyable then you should make a thread on it and share your opinions (within reason of course, 9,000 threads on a single topic add little to the discussion but no idea lacks merit to be discussed).
     
  6. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    A 4 ply toilet paper might be S tier on paper, but it's actually stiffer and more uncomfortable to use than solid a 3 ply. Can someone please confirm my analysis? :sheep:
     
  7. Leucarum

    Leucarum Prince

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    With Civ6's focus on asymmetric civs balance will be tough at the best of times. In MP it's a downside, but presumably a neccesary one. The starts are still more balanced than in a paradox strategy game though!

    As an SP player I would prefer civs to play distinctly than for them to have perfect balance, it gives the game more longevity. Given that, I'm glad that firaxis seemed to focus lately on fixing the edge cases where a civ becomes un-fun because it's plain OP (Maori pre-nerf), gets starts which are nigh-unplayable (Canada), have lost their uniqueness (Norway) or which use mechanics which had been changed by the passage of expansions (England).
     
  8. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation

    Now here's a good read for toilet paper strategy.

    In before someone says they wipe their behind in 1.78 seconds, thus being much more optinal in 2s. ::< But how will you defend vs barbarians?

    Which in particular?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    That depends. Are they attacking you with "pointy sticks", or are they a ninja panther?
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Hurricanes
     
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  11. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    I used to play RTS games competitively (I still get a few rounds of SC2 in every once in a while, and I'm looking forward to the AoE and AoE 2 definitive editions). One of my favorite games, Rise of Nations, allowed me to keep discovering new combinations and new ways to play.

    Civ to me has always been kind of a sandbox - I realized in Civ 3 that winning was a matter of taking out your nearest neighbor just around the time they've built up enough cities to make it worthwhile. No AI could really catch up at that point unless it also conquered its neighboring civ(s), even then though chances are slim the AI could catch up to a determined human player.

    I enjoy limiting myself in Civ, looking for new challenges, I'm getting interested in targeting optimal win times, it sounds quite challenging.

    I personally mainly just want a good story out of a Civ game. Building up an empire, coming up with a smart plan and successfully adapting to circumstances as I try to execute it. Losing and then hopefully regaining cities always spices things up too. Finding a new way to win/play is always interesting to me in all the games I play.

    I think you're right about balance, I don't think a game with 40+ civs will ever reach that. I kind of preferred the Civ 2 way of doing things at first, but that eventually would have to give way to making each civ unique. This new style adds fun twists like winning a science victory as a religious civ, or taking your civ to the heights of its specialization, so there are lots of ways to enjoy that too.

    It looks like Civ is moving in the direction of testing a player's adaptability to different situations, at least that seems like the goal with Civ 6. I like it, I hope with 7 they focus on really making the government bonuses stand out, along with the new civic tree, and also enhancing the empire management aspect.
     
  12. _hero_

    _hero_ King

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    I think the question comes down to who do the devs want to make their game for? It simply isn't possible to make a game that appeals to all possible audiences. Trying to do so usually leads to a worse game in my experience.
     
  13. S1AL

    S1AL Warlord

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    Is there a point here beyond "you're having fun wrong"? You could say "Scrabble" instead of Civ6" and nothing about the statement would change, but people play competitive Scrabble. You name a game, people probably play it competitively in some form. I find single-player incredibly boring and wouldn't be playing the game outside of a multiplayer league.
     
  14. Bosque

    Bosque Warlord

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    To be honest, tornadoes and blizzards have caused me much more pain than hurricanes have.
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Wherever I lay my hat, it will be blown.
     
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  16. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

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    Only way to play a balanced game of civ:

    -Multiplayer
    -Duel
    -Both same civ
    -Mirror map
    -no rng stuff
     
  17. local_hero

    local_hero Prince

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    I agree. I see hurricanes come and go, but they have seldom hit me. I think I have few coastal cities in most of my games though. Tornadoes on the other hand, I despise them. Destroys so much and they run for a long distance. I have even had tornadoes starting in my city centers. Ugh.
     
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  18. Gloompy

    Gloompy Chieftain

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    Honestly, I enjoy losing Civ6 games more than I enjoy winning them sometimes.

    I recall playing Shaka back in Civ4 with a rule that I always have to be at war with everyone. It was really fun managing all the trouble I was getting into and having to shift my units constantly. Eventually, getting attacked from 3 separate area's at once and caving in, I felt satisfied hearing "HYYYYYYAAAARRRR!" of my cities citizens being taken. I did my best.
     

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