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Civilization-poll 12-06-2015

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Funak, Jun 12, 2015.

?

Which civilization to to rework/adjust.

  1. American

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  2. Austrian

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  3. Brazilian

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. Carthaginian

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Celtic

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Danish

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  7. Dutch

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  8. Egyptian

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  9. English

    6 vote(s)
    26.1%
  10. Greek

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Indonesian

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  12. Japanese

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  13. Korean

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  14. Mayan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Mongolian

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  16. Ottoman

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  17. Polish

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  18. Polynesian

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  19. Portuguese

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  20. Roman

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  21. Shoshone

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  22. Siamese

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  23. Songhai

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  24. Swedish

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  25. None of the above

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Time for this months UA-poll. But I'd like to do something different this time and not actually focus on the UA, and instead focus on the Civilizations as a whole. This is because I think most UAs are atleast in a decent position right now.
    Vote for civs you would like to see reworked/tweaked/changed/removed/nerfed/buffed/AndSoOn.
    You are allowed to post reasons for your votes and discuss others votes but please try to keep it civil .
    You are not required to post reasons behind your votes, you aren't actually required to post anything.

    The top X civs with the most votes are going to receive discussion-threads where you can discuss what you think is wrong with them and how you'd like to see them changed. I would love to see some more activity in those threads. I'm not really psychic (at least as far as you know ) so I can't represent your opinions if you don't let me know about them, if you're extremely frightened by public speaking I guess you could send me a private message.
    Gazebo is psychic, but he promised to never use that power for balance.


    The polls on this forum have a limit of 25 options so I'm going to use some blood-rituals, divination and a random number generator to choose which 24 civs to add to the poll, if you think all civs on the list are fine then just vote for the 25th option.


    You're allowed to vote on up to 5 different civs, again you don't know about my psychic abilities so you don't know if I can actually detect how many times you votes. But please try to stick to the rules :D
     
  2. DLimited

    DLimited Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    152
    I voted Ottomans, simply because I find the Trade Caravan bonus quite boring. I'd love it if they could get some kind of combat bonus again. However, this is just personal preference.
     
  3. Opera

    Opera Deity

    Joined:
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    I mentioned it a few times, I think Byzantium could use a more interesting UA, or at least some kind of Faith generation that's before Philosophy. My favorite idea is to give them faith from defensive buildings. There are a few other ways I've thought about: faith per city connection, faith every time borders expand (this one is cool too), maybe some others.

    Then, there's the matter of Carthage's UB. My little pet peeve, I suppose. I'm not 100% against it being a National Wonder, but I'd like it to feel more involved than just upping the number of trade routes. I think the American UB is actually a good example as it affects other buildings.

    In keeping with the coastal bias of Carthage, they could get a bonus to seaports or lighthouses. Maybe some production?

    Besides these two (None of the above/Carthage), I may have some other thoughts but I need to check them in-game before... So I haven't voted yet, I'll find 3 others first.

    PS: I'm surprised to not see Spain in the list, given your thoughts on them, Funak :p
     
  4. WileyNg

    WileyNg Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I voted Japanese, I feel the bushido bonus is too weak. Better amp it up a little bit
     
  5. Carinyc

    Carinyc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2015
    Messages:
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    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Definitely the English and the Japanese.

    For England I feel that the Ship of the Line should be replaced by the more well known Redcoats, a possible replacement for Musketmen than gains a +20% combat bonus in foreign and neutral lands. Ship of the line as a unique unit just feels weak in my opinion when you compare it to other civilisations in the community patch.

    Secondly, I think Japan could do with a rework in terms of their unique building and ability. I think a good idea would be to have their shrine replaced with a Shinto shrine, which gives an overall +2 :c5culture: and +1 :c5faith: costs -15% less production to build, and along with bushido, have the ability to purchase a unique unit (ronin... basically a swordsman replacement but is slightly less effective) at the beginning of the classical era.
     
  6. Valvts

    Valvts A Plant

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    341
    Can you make a poll about social policies and Ideologies? I feel like most of the civs are pretty balanced or intresting.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
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    They have pretty sick combat-bonuses from their UB and unique decision. Automatic Siege for all artillery units and automatic extra siege (stacking) for all artillery and all gunpowder units.
    I honestly think they are borderline the most powerful conquest-civ in the game because of those two.

    I don't decide the civs, I use a random number generator. Also I've quite fine with Spain at the moment, their UB got changed and I haven't played them since then.

    It got amped up in the last version didn't it? And if I remember correctly their UB got overtuned to make up for their UA. Again, you're welcome to vote however you want, I'm just reflecting.

    I agree that the current SotL is pretty bland, it lost a lot of its power with the introduction of the Cruiser. However I disagree completely with the Redcoats, as I don't see what's special about them other than that they make Americans feel national pride.

    Sounds like quite the project.

    I don't see how these would be mutually exclusive, but I'm going to keep making one of these threads every month for as long as I feel like it. There is always something to adjust, and even if there isn't it's nice to know what people think.

    Also I'm not quite sure what you mean with a poll about social policies and Ideologies? Just asking which one people dislike the most? Because threads like that keeps popping up every now and then.
     
  8. WileyNg

    WileyNg Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Yeah. I didnt play the patch for a month already but last time I check the UA combat bonus was merely a 10% increase max? It's too low imo.

    But I might be wrong coz I haven't played for a month already.
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
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    It gives food and culture from sea-resources now aswell if I remember correctly. And the Dojo provides a bunch of different promotions, most bordering on overpowered.
     
  10. Valvts

    Valvts A Plant

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    341
    For instance which tree is in need of balance? The first thing pops into my head is Patronage, I think this tree need to integrate CSD more heavily, for example discount on production costs on CSD buildings.
    Another one is Imperialism, which I find non-relevant until modern era, which most of the time takes him out of the third policy tree choice.

    Another thread can be discussing specific tenets in Ideologies, with pictures. I can take them easily with Push program!
    The first thing comes in mind is the tenet that gives you free universities(...) in modern era.

    Another one about Reformation belief, which without any doubt, the education buildings purchase belief trumps every other. I feel like I tie my hands behind my back when I dont pick that up.

    Most importantly, Im not saying that the current balance is poor, but suggesting how things can get even better. :)
     
  11. Damirith

    Damirith Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Messages:
    379
    Americans dont "feel national pride" with the thought of Redcoats. England has been friendly since the after the War of 1812 and an ally by WW1 so that "revolutionary pride" of killing redcoats is very much dated. I agree, England's UU shouldn't be the Redcoats, that is just a nickname for any solider in their army. It should stay SOTL or some ship variant. If the cruiser is throwing it off, either nerf the cruiser a little or beef up SOTL a little. With the theme "Sun Never Sets" a ship makes more sense to me for a UU then a musketman.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Sure, but using Redcoats as a unique unit would mark the American revolution as the most important part of English history. I mean I had not even heard the term before I heard some Americans discuss it. On the other hand SotL and English Longbows are historically famous at least in my opinion.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    To be clear, the existence of one of these threads does not guarantee that any major changes will be made to UA/UB/UI/UUs at this point. We are, more or less, in the 'fiddling with knobs' part of the CBP's balance, so let's not get too crazy here.

    In other words, tweak what exists, do not start offering up reworks or from-scratch inventions.

    G
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    That is always the intention, but if someone gets a extremely good idea for one of the more uninspiring uniques I don't see any reason why we shouldn't go for it.

    Also no thread every guarantees anything, but it is a rather good way to gather feedback in my opinion.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Because time and energy. There are plenty of existing functions, table elements and secondary tables for us to use that the AI knows how to use. When we go down the path of 'anything is possible' it usually means lots of DLL work for me. :)

    'Fiddling with knobs' = using existing tables and functions.

    G
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    If someone gets an idea that is truly groundbreaking, earth-shattering and revolutionary that might be worth lots of DLL work for you? :D

    Again I've never seen such an idea, so I wouldn't expect it, but giving an absolute no might sap the creative spirit out of people. In that case it's probably better if you refuse the finished idea instead :D
     
  17. jma22tb

    jma22tb Prince

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    I'll drop in and suggest that this time and energy discussing the mod and critiquing every yield, change, and design could be dedicated toward learning how much goes into modding. It gives some perspective on why Gazebo is hesitant to reinvent the wheel based on forum posts.

    I'm not a software programmer/engineer, and ever since making that AI Testing thread I've come to realize how much actually needs to be done in order to make what seems like a simple, common sense thing happen. Everything I did in that thread, which I thought was a lot at first, is just a small part of a huge amount of values, triggers, and switches that all have to work together correctly.

    I don't mean to offend, but we can make this project even better if we adopt a volunteer's mentality toward achieving our collective goal of the best Civ 5 experience possible than that of a critic's. There's a lot of work that goes into making this project what it is and there's plenty of room to help ;)
     
  18. hokath

    hokath King

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    Well said jma.

    On topic, I voted for the Ottomans.
    I don't like UA or the siege workshop UB for the Ottomans. The UA most of all, its very passive and doesn't change anything much. In JFD's recent Ottoman alternate leader he gave the vanilla civ a similar trade related UA. Perhaps we could nab that.

    The English don't have a great theme, but so long as they are really good my inner patriot isn't complaining.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I honestly don't see what would make that UA superior to this one. It pretty much forces you to use internal traderoutes or be stuck with a completely dead UA.
    Don't get me wrong, I like JFDs Ottoman split, but that UA still feels like one step down from this one.

    The SotL is pretty boring, truth be told. I didn't really have any problem with the English UA back before Mongolia got buffed, they both did pretty much the same thing, one boosted boats and one boosted horse-units but they were pretty much the same thing.
    Now with Mongolia getting changed I'm starting to think that maybe England needs to change aswell.
    Also I've never really been a big fan of their factory.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Regarding the Ottomans, I'll step in to defend their design a little bit. I'm not defending the design because I redesigned them (I'm not that petty), I'm defending it because I want to point out what potentially makes them strong.

    The UA:

    Part 1: Free Caravansary in every city. Pretty useful to get a chunk of production for free in the early game, and the ability to send your TR anywhere (and make good money from them to boot). Plus, the caravansary as a concept was largely perfected by the Ottomans, so it is thematic.

    Receive Food/Science/Production from completed international TRs. This is pretty strong - you are essentially getting the bonus of an internal trade route from external ones. Granted, the bonus drops when the route is complete, but an extra chunk of food/production/science every time a TR completes adds up fast. Is it passive? Perhaps, but the same could be said for many UAs. It does change your gameplay style quite a bit (you want to secure your TRs so you need to make allies and spread your influence out). This may seem like it is out-of-sync with the UB/UU, but you do get the bonus from any international TR, so CSs and Vassals work in your favor. (Note: I've upped the Ottoman UA bonus in the latest build, so there may be some observation bias going on here).

    The UB:

    The Siege Foundry is really quite potent. Plus you now get it in the Classical Era, which means every siege unit you ever make is (theoretically) coming out with way more siege firepower than anyone else's. You can take cities quite easily.

    The UU: The Janissary is one of the best mid-game shock troops out there. If you want to pick an era to go warmonger, this is the one.

    Are the Ottomans perfect? No, but they have a niche, and they do push you towards a certain gameplay style, which is (admittedly) what I look for when redesigning a civ.

    G
     

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