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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    I just wish they'd given us Edward I as an English leader to troll Robert the Bruce...

    In all seriousness, Edward I would be an excellent leader choice for England (unless his legacy really is seen so negatively 700 years on in Scotland and Wales that he'd be contentious - someone earlier on the thread said he has a poor reputation in Hungary because for whatever reason the Hungarians have a song about his treatment of Welsh poets, which is a pretty random piece of infamy for someone who may be the most neglected in English popular consciousness of all the major English monarchs). He was regarded by his contemporaries - even the ones who hated and feared him - as the embodiment of medieval English kingship and was extremely successful both militarily and in terms of domestic legal reforms and maintaining civil order within England. His reign saw the ascendancy of the quintessential longbow, and the large trebuchet he ordered constructed, Warwolf, is immortalised in the Age of Empires II civ roughly based on his period.

    There's no alternation as such, because we've only had Assyria once, but Civ's ancient Near/Middle East has always been 'Babylon plus Other(s)' be they Sumeria, Hittites or Assyria.

    I see Sumer taking Assyria's place in Civ VI because its playstyle is basically that of Civ V Assyria (and much more appropriate for Assyria - it's a testament to how well implemented that civ was in Civ V, or alternatively how relatively forgettable Babylon's treatment was, that a sometime-requested civ here is now preferred over a series stalwart by some) - and because Babylon has been in every Civ game and I'm a believer in keeping the original 12 (and if I dropped any, the Zulu and the Aztecs would go before Babylon).
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  2. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    That would be ironic because on a TSL map Robert would love Edward (his neighbor). :lol:

    At this point if we had to pick a male leader I would have taken Henry V, just for a Longbow UU, or Alfred the Great one of the first to lead a united England.
     
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  3. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Seems reason enough to include him to me...

    The longbow started seeing widespread use during Edward's campaign in Scotland. If you're using Edward you're basically using the monarch who best represents Norman-era England, so for all the longbow's famous association with Agincourt it's at least as appropriate for Edward.

    As much as I'm interested in Anglo-Saxon England, I don't think it makes a particularly compelling English civ particularly as we have so many better-documented time periods to choose from (though I did love the Huscarl art in the Civ V 1066 scenario). I also think England has so many 'obvious' leader choices - Alfred, Knut (perhaps as a joint leader with a Danish civ), Richard I, Henry V, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Victoria, Churchill - who are well-known to international audiences that it would be welcome for them to go for someone prominent and reasonably well-known but who may be less familiar to some of the audience (much as they did with Eleanor of Aquitaine). Sadly, Edward made the fatal mistake of not hiring Shakespeare to do PR for him (either positive or negative), so he's rather fallen by the wayside in popular history.

    Some of the Total War entries are better places to look in that regard - the actual presentation of the individual factions is often pretty woeful, and they make some 'gamey' compromises from time to time to add fictional provinces or create nonexistent factions to let players start in underrepresented bits of the map (Carthago Nova in Rome II being an infamous example) - but they do go into a fair bit of detail to find roughly accurate faction names and boundaries for the main game map itself.

    They also do a pretty faithful rendition of the Warhammer World...
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  4. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    robert the bruce is such a fun leader to have in civ

    his leader ability should’ve had to do something with the spider
     
  5. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    Well, part of those domestic legal reforms include expelling all Jews from Britain. They were not legally allowed back until Cromwell.

    Plenty of people have legit beef with ol' Eddie.
     
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  6. VermelhoRed

    VermelhoRed Prince

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    Tbh Germany in Civ 5 was meant to englobe the Germanic peoples met by the Romans up until the modern country, and Civ 6's Germany goes back at the very least to the Middle Ages.
     
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  7. Hoppip22

    Hoppip22 Chieftain

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    But that's the thing though, I would argue that it's not 'pop culture' that influences decisions, but rather that popular historical memory influences decisions. I see the PRC teaching that the 6,000 years of history are the cumulative expression of Chinese identity as more like drawing a line from the Holy Roman Empire to the modern German state rather than overt historical revisionism. (despite real problems with historical revisionism in the PRC oof)

    In this line of thinking, Portugal and Spain are differentiated as distinct civilizations in historical memory, and thus both are necessary/desirable additions to the game.
     
  8. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    as are mali and songhai, or khmer and siam. their statuses as nations in similar geographic regions, historical niches, and similar relevance historically means you don’t need both in the same game, and rotating them makes a lot of sense.
     
  9. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Those Civs play differently though. The Khmer were skilled extremely skilled engineers (the jungle cities complete with sophisticated infrastructure, the barays, the war machines, gunpowder/fireworks) while the Siamese have a more pronounced cultural angle. Likewise the Mali were an economic powerhouse compared to the warlike Songhai.

    It's not so much a question of 'oh this civ made it in last time, let's rotate them out." It's more like "okay, we need a civ who can do this and this, which region haven't we added to the game yet? what building and unit haven't we replaced yet? do they have a leader from an unrepresented time period? a valid female choice? someone who is considered a folk hero/heroine?"

    Blame ignorance for making people believe these Civs are interchangeable. They're not.
     
  10. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    "We had the United States last time; let's use the Apaches this time."

    Incidentally, I think for England, Edward III would be better than Edward I. But be guided by popular culture and it will be Henry VIII!

    As for Bruce and the spider, I refer you to Sellar and Yeatrman. "The Scots were now under the leadership of the Bruce (not to be confused with the Wallace), who, doubtful whether he had slain the Red Comyn or not, armed himself with an enormous spider and marched against the English, determined if possible to win back the Great Scone by beating the English three times running."
     
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  11. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Henry VIII would be the bomb in Civ. Customizing the tenets of your state religion at will to suit your interests would translate into an awesome leader ability. (with a downside attached to it ofc). Not to mention the characterization of Henry VIII would resonate well in Civ as well.
     
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  12. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Henry VIII definitely fits the “big personality” trope.

    I’ve been wanting him to make a comeback since Civ2, not out of any affection for him, as he was a terrible person, but because he’d make for a great antagonist and a hilarious leaderhead. Can’t you just see him waving around a chicken leg or something while he glowers at you?

    Henry’s England would be high-minded, cultured, and totally up in your business.
     
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  13. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Although he did SOME very rotten and nasty things (didn't all Medieval and Early Modern leaders, though?), his reputation as an ALL-AROUND "terrible person," seems to be unearned and undeserved - unless you buy into Roman Catholic historical propaganda.
     
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  14. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

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    I am okay with it. But the thing about Siamese / Khmer and Mali / Songhai is that the latter took over the former translating to almost one and the other not coexisting in their respective former glory and overlapping their territory. This is not the case with Spain and Portugal: they coexisted and peaked at the same time, doing the same thing (colonial, even if one was more on conquest and metal gathering, and the other on trade) and do not share the same territorry. Sure, they "merged" together for ~50 years (I don't have the numbers in head), but that's it.

    Basicly Siamese/Khmer and Mali/Songhai are different people with different views finding themselves to control the same territory. Spain/Portugal are close but different people with roughly same views but with different territories.

    This is neither a way to defend Portugal nor a way to denfend Siam / Songhai. I just wanted to show that the situation between both of them are not equivalent.
     
  15. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Portugal and Spain have both existed in the same game for 3 iterations of Civ. I don't see the need to start rotating them now when they haven't. As I've said above the exploration niche hasn't been filled yet and Portugal would be the best Civ to do it. Have unique Great Admirals, naval units get experience points for exploration, science from water coastal tiles (navigational science) etc.

    Mali and Songhai ended up controlling the same geographic territory and major cities like Timbuktu, so I agree that is harder to implement. Plus Songhai as pointed out are more warlike and expansive compared to Mali so not similar playstyles. Honestly that's why I'm not convinced Morocco will return as Mali took some desert trading aspects.

    Siam and Khmer could easily coexist if we possibly have another frontier pass and closer to 60 civs but for some reason they have decided to alternate the mainland SE Asian civs, considering they are close and influential. I do admit the way the Khmer are designed do make Siam unlikely, but I think if the devs wanted to they could find some way to make them return.

    Firaxis Devs:
    "So let's talk about Carthage. People complained in Civ 5 how militaristic they were and how they were lead by a fictitious woman, and not Hannibal."

    "Right so maybe instead we should make them less militaristic, and dump the War Elephants."

    "Well we can't give them Hannibal then."

    "You're right. How about making Phoenicia then and focus more on the maritime trading aspects?"

    "Are there any Phoenician leaders we know about?"

    "Oh there's one I have in mind, and she's a valid female choice." :mischief:
     
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  16. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I don’t know if I’d go that far. He did have an awful lot of people killed. Granted, so did both of his daughters. But in Henry’s case, it seemed to be based on pique as much as anything else.
     
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  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    All he wanted was a son. Is that too much to ask for? ;)
    There were too many people named Thomas running around in Tudor England anyway. :mischief:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  18. snakeboy

    snakeboy Chieftain

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    Exactly. Spain being the Religion focussed 'colonial' power I'd say as well there's enough room to validate Portugal from a gameplay perspective as well. In fact, I'd even go so far to call them essential, if they indeed offer the unique building of the feitoria as a forward settling trading post that is able to gather resources. That is sorely missing.

    I still keep my fingers crossed for a Colonial themed Game Mode, that introduces the trading post as a building for all civs, and then Portugal could have it earlier and with fortified benefits. The other abilities could be spend on Naval Exploration perks, making Portugal really stand in its own right. (Say, a caravela/nau unit that unlocks at the medieval Naval Tradition civic, and is able to gather coastal goody huts and clear barb camps for double gold).
     
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  19. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    lol Civ 5 carthage being too militaristic. I almost exclusively played Carthage in civ 5 and I hardly ever went with war and still curbstomped everyone on Emperor. Ridiculously good wide civ with Liberty and Ceremonial Burial/Asceticism/Pagoda support. (so I'm glad that the rabid coastal expansion aspect of Carthage has found its way back in Phoenicia, except not *as* good as it was in Civ 5 :cry: oh well.)

    and I definitely don't mind the choice of Dido either. as you might have guessed. :p
     
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Well according to the abilities it kind of was, which is why people complained.
    I was all for Phoenicia's inclusion, but I never thought it was possible with Carthage being an actual empire, and not much info on leaders. So I'm glad the only way we could get it was with Dido. :goodjob:
     

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