[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    India would only have to lose Thanjavur for the chola, they’d have to lose delhi, agra, jaipur, and various others for the Mughals. even if Lahore was the mughal capital, you wouldn’t get to have the most requested mughal leader, Nur Jahan, you’d have to have Akbar (who’s a great choice nonetheless, but just making a point)
     
  2. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    There's a fine line between nationalism and separatist movements, and if by merely having nationalist Dravidian movements makes India need a split-up, then clearly we need Texas and Dixie as separate civs from the U.S. Let's throw in Bavaria, Basque, Silesia, Sakha, Eritrea, and just split up France and Arabia altogether since half of their territory wants to peace out. And forget about Italy.

    By that logic, Canada and Australia are absolutely ahistorical, and then in descending order of a-historic-ish-ness, Brazil, America, Russia, Arabia, and China.

    Mexico is probably the closest analogue to India at this point, but the difference is that modern India is a world power; Mexico isn't. It makes more sense to represent Mexico at bigger "heights" of civilization, whereas modern India already represents one of the apexes of the region.

    Yeah I said extremely unlikely. But we also don't know for certain if NFP is the end of new civs, or if DLC 3 is an Africa map pack, the latter of which especially would imply that we would get something along the Swahili or Guinea coast alongside the Berbers. Miniscule chance, but still possible.

    Maybe in future games, sure. Not in VI though. And even for future games it's a logistics nightmare trying to imagine how the devs would actually implement an India split. It's something that might never happen because they would rather leave that sort of pedantry to the modders.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  3. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    I think you’ve missed my point by a mile. I was referring to seperatist movements bcs you referred to the current standing of india as stable (and that being an accomplishment in and of itself) while that isn’t the case.

    And how convenient of you to frame my argument for why india needs a split up in terms of modern seperatist movement (which wasn’t an argument i made anyway), since you clearly fail to rebut my point that modern unified india is not representative of the long history of the nation.

    And surely you don’t want to go down the straw man line of argument you’ve used here, do you? My argument regarding India being united solely due to colonization clearly doesn’t apply to nations/cultures that didn’t exist prior to colonization, such as Canada or the US. I’m clearly referring to the fact that India as a polity didn’t exist for 4850 years out of its 5000 year history (if not longer), yet the unified polity that exists today is not only fairly unremarkable compared to the accomplishments of the mughals, maurya, gupta, chola, maratha, vijayanagarans, bengalis, sikh punjabi’s, ghaznavids and other south indian great kingdoms, but as a nation steeped in poverty and still recovering from the damages of colonialism, fails to represent the great wealth and scientific knowledge India historically has been known for?

    The Gupta empire, which I would say should rotate with the Maurya in civ games, for example, was a hot bed of scientific learning, spawning famous mathematicians, like Aryabatha, developing the hindu-arabic numeral system and being extremely skilled at astronomy and astrology, to the point where their scientists correctly predicted astronomical events that preceded and succeeded their time by hundreds and thousands of years

    The Maurya, who ruled at the tail end of the writing period of various hindu religious-scientific scripts, undoubtedly, should and could reflect the faith and science focus of their kingdom. They were also skilled conquerers

    Likewise, the Chola, were great wonder builders, mastermind oceanic traders and skilled at spreading their culture and religion while simultaneously developing vassal states

    The Mughals were patrons of the arts, but skilled conquerers.

    And all of them had to balance varying ethnicities and cultures, just like Modern India.

    So frankly, climbing out of artificially-causes poverty, holding together various ethnicities and developing status as a strong regional influence are not good justifications for Modern India appearing as a civ because they’re not really accomplishments, in the former’s case, and in the case of the latter, it’s not something unique to modern India.
     
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  4. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Like I said I wasn't talking about Civ 6 and I don't see it happening. I think Gandhi and Chandragupta are probably all we will have for India. Who knows what it would be like for Civ 7 though?

    What I was saying is from a name recognition standpoint I'm sure the Mughals would have the better chance. I am also considering the fact that they did not originate not from modern-day India.

    That being said I'm sure the Chola has gotten some name recognition thanks to Bill Wurtz's history of the entire world video.
     
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  5. BuchiTaton

    BuchiTaton Prince

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    Is an Indian split historically justified?
    Of course!

    Is technically possible?
    Yes it is.

    Is game design wise?
    Maybe.

    Is an CIV6 expasion the way to do it?
    Dont seems to be the case.

    Is CIV7 the proper moment?
    Still unlikely if Firaxis dont overcome the meme that is Gandhi.

    Seriously, I see many people that know about CIV's Gandhi without even play the game.
     
  6. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Not quite as on the nose as "defeated enemies turn into Builders; Builder charges rush districts." :p (I mean, Gorgo also gets culture from kills, and that's clearly intended to represent heroic epics, not human sacrifice. :p )
     
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  7. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    No. Byzantium OR Babylon plus another civ from the Mid East or North Africa that either new or not used very often. But definitely NOT BOTH Byzantium and Babylon.

    Considering Maya and Gran Colombia and Kublai Khan and Vietnam, they're pairing new with old.

    And I don't think it will be Portugal and a new civ, because there aren't a lot of new possibilities that Portugal interacted with. And I don't see another European civ.
     
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Sure but there civ ability literally was called Sacrificial Captives. :p
    I'm not disagreeing that Civ 6 is probably a better representation of it. The same can be said for when a builder is sacrificed for every Great Wall segment when playing Qin Shi Huang's China.

    Which could mean Byzantium and Assyria. :mischief:
     
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  9. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    in civ 6 terms i’d hope that either the chola or mughals act as macedon for india
     
  10. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    As far as I can discern, you are minimizing centuries of fighting for independence and rise from poverty to major economic sphere as somehow "less", where those same people were fairly easily toppled and unified by the Maurya, Mughals, and British in earlier eras. Seems somewhat arbitrary to distinguish between the current unified India as representing an admixture of Mauryan, Mughal, Dravidian, British, etc. heritage when it seems "India" spent milennia being, in effect, a melting pot of old invasive cultures. If anything, I see your complaint as being more valid against India being represented by Gandhi than really supporting it needing to be broken up altogether.

    As for the Tamilians, I don't know what you expect the devs to do about it. There's Dravidian nationalism, there's tension with Sri Lanka, but no actual independence has been achieved. To what extent could they represent a Dravidian/Tamil/Chola civ that doesn't completely undermine the modern Indian state? In a game that already has Gandhi in it, anything Chola would read as taking a political stance on a separation that hasn't happened yet, and feels like if it actually had popular support would have already happened like it did with Pakistan and Bangladesh. The idea, at least as you portray a north-south dichotomy of India, simply isn't ripe yet.

    (and for that matter, I argue that Scotland wasn't either...but Scotland is at least a separate kingdom with a much more stolid, if not well-known, stance on secession)

    At the heart of both of these issues is Gandhi, and I'm sorry but we can't do anything about him at this point. India's portrayal in civ would have been far better without him, on that I'm pretty sure we can agree. But then again, the game would have been better without "England" and "Greece", the seven wonders of the classical world, and barbarian camps/goody huts, and yet by this point the series is so entrenched in dumb, western-centric pop history traditions that we can't be free of it. Gandhi will be in every game because that's what was memetically successful about India; that's what's taught in history, that's what the thronging masses want.
     
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  11. zhugejingqi

    zhugejingqi Chieftain

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    I don't know what the technical term is. Macedonians in the real world have to admit that Alexander is actually a Greek.
    Besides, I have a sincere suggestion. It is indeed a good way to avoid controversy by choosing people with a long history. But if the character brings encouragement to real-world separatism and expansionism, it should be ruled out.
     
  12. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Gran Colombia and the Maya technically never interacted either but both just happened to be close together geographically. I think they still could pair Portugal with someone else if they wanted too.

    If England was called Britain and they were the British Empire I can see why Scotland wouldn't be needed. But considering the civ is called England it is fine it's separate.
    That being said Eleanor never would have ruled Scotland in the first place.

    Macedonia today and the region of Macedon in the Hellenistic world is different. Macedonians today are definitely Slavic. Ancient Macedon was a Greek kingdom that was somewhat both politically and culturally different though from the rest of the city-states to the south.
     
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  13. untitledjuan

    untitledjuan Warlord

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    I'd rather have the Cathedral of Florence as an Italian wonder

    I agree, I'd like the inclusion of the Empire State, but I would also like to have Fallingwater, or other Frank Lloyd Wright building as a wonder. We lack modernist wonders, I'd be happy with at least one

    Neuschwanstein is cool, but the lack of gothic architecture in the game shocks me. I'd prefer Cologne Cathedral as a German wonder (or even the Bauhaus school building :))

    The thing here is that pre-colonial cultures in India continued as the modern cultures that exist in India, they've got an unbroken cultural succession. Modern widespread Mexican culture isn't an unbroken cultural succession from Aztec or Maya culture, it is a mix of these and Spanish culture, but mostly the latter. So the comparison with Mexico is not accurate. Mexican culture wouldn't exist without colonization, that's why some people have argued for a separate Mexico civ and that's the reason we have Mexico City as a city state, even though it is the same city as the Aztec capital. (Though it'd be cool to have more leaders from other time periods and cultures of India)
     
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  14. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    That particular statement was addressing some thoughts on pairing Portugal with a Native American civ. There just wasn't much interaction there.

    But I don't see them throwing in another European civ in with Portugal either, unless it's Industrial or maybe Classical. Europe is just plain stuffed and Portugal is a good candidate for a solo DLC.

    I really feel like it's going to be some combination of Middle Eastern and/or North African. A new with an old.
     
  15. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    Please. And I beg of you, please, stop trying to explain the politics of my people to me. Dravidian Nationalism died in the 70s. It’s a fringe movement at best today. Making the Chola like the way Macedon is separate from Greece despite being ‘the same’ wouldn’t be taking a political stance at all. And I’m curious what you think tension with Sri Lanka means, because that would really show how much you know about this subject. Because the Chola were a mainland Tamilian nation, and although they conquered Sri Lanka, the tamil genocide in Sri Lanka was Sri Lankan tamils (and the Indian government supported the Sri Lankan Government there). My point being, tension with Sri Lanka is a nonpoint. Who would the tension with Sri Lanka be with? the Tamil people? Still a moot point, the Chola are generally positively looked upon there even though the Sinhalese Sri Lankans kill Tamilians there. And culturally, there’s a massive dichotomy between the north and the south. The languages vary immensely, the religious practices are distinct, the food doesn’t share any commonalities outside of the usage of rice and roti. The histories are distinct too: Never were the South and North actually unified.
    As for the former point, yes, that’s my point, Macedon is a Greek nation, but it’s a separate civ. I’m proposing the same for the Chola, an ‘Indian’ kingdom, but a separate civ.

    And it hardly would encourage separatism or expansionism. The Chola are a point of pride for the Tamilian people but not a motivation to declare independence or anything. They’d be a very uncontroversial pick.
     
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  16. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Technically every civ that had hold a territory larger than its modern counterpart can encourage expansionism; and every civ that are once independent but are now part of another modern nation-state can encourage separatism. Because that's how a political standpoint works. If we choose to view civs in the lens like this, then a game modeled after IRL civilizations/nations can just encourage every possible political movement, especially when you can murder every other civ. So I sincerely want to keep this kind of politics away from this game as well as this thread.
     
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  17. zhugejingqi

    zhugejingqi Chieftain

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    The controversy is always big and small. It may not matter to introduce Granada, but Barcelona is another matter.If a business project does not consider such politics, I can only say that it is too naive.
    When discussing the possibility of a business plan, we should not only stand in the perspective of consumers, but also consider the difficulties of developers.
     
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  18. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    Well I really doubt they will add 'The United Arab Emirates' to a game with a merged 'Arabia'.
     
  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I think a Portugal and a North African Berber civ would work just as well considering even Babylon or Assyria could easily be a standalone DLC civ.
     
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  20. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    This. exactly this.
    But last I checked Catalonia was never civ-worthy as a political entity, so your example doesn’t matter.
     
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