Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.
Oh yes, my mistake. I don't really notice what great musician I'm getting.
There are 2 civs in that pack.
Seems like we've nailed it now..
So.. orcs and dwarves?
Tang was fully ethnically Chinese insofar as Chinese, in the northern states, was concerned. If you were to trace their ancestry, you would probably end up mixed between somewhere in the steppes and the Han homelands but if you were to use that distinction, then quite a lot of Chinese dynasties would very quickly end up foreign/invader/conqueror role.
Though speaking of people north of China, it would be pretty cool to have Jurchens/Manchu in Civ at some point. They've played a pretty big role throughout history and definitely qualify for even the oldest of Civ's requirements of a culture. They have an (endangered) language the leader could speak, they've created their own script. They've been a constant in Manchuria, have a looong history with Koreans (Jurchens - Koreans are kind of the same eternal duo as Monglians - Chinese).
Set up a good bunch of states: Goguryeo (probably a Koreanic state, but it definitely included and shaped these people), state of Balhae (another mixed Goguryo-Jurchen state, interacted with Tang, later Korean kingdoms as well as the Japanese of their time, all of whom wrote about the place), Jin dynasty (built the northern Great Wall, but Mongols had some unfinished business with the Jurchens right around this Genghis Khan fella'), Manchukuo (if you wanna count, keeping in mind there are still Manchukuoans living today) and of course the later Jin/Qing dynasty, which hopefully needs no introduction.
These guys also had a hand in the founding of the Joseon dynasty (you know, Sejong and stuff) as the dynasty's founder was, much like in the case of Tang, a Jurchen from the later days of Yuan and Goryeo (which itself was led by the Mongolian khan's cousins), and later when Qing came to power, all Joseon kings had to grow up with in the Jurchen (now Manchu) royal court, married at least one Jurchen princess and so on. As it happens, they were also the only people, until the US, to invade and occupy any portion of mainland Japan (yes, Jurchens did successfully occupy part of Kyuushu and had the imperial army drive them out).
They definitely have qualifications well beyond places like Cananda or one-hit wonders like the Huns as far as Civ is concerned and it would be nice, if highly unlikely, to see them represented as something other than some weird nobodies appearing out of thin air and taking over China, inventing the qipao and then getting by and large sinicised by the modern day. Plus points for at least once in history actually showing something related to Korean history that's not them being the tiny nobody between Japan and China (We got Silla and it was just repainted Joseon with a queen whose sole accomplishment is giving Tang the backdoor needed to succeed where Sui had failed).
But yeah, using Cixi as their leader would probably not work out well.
Salote Topou III of Tonga can replace her (as a leader or a great musician - both work)
Then we need new merchant to give me my free Governor Title! I need my precious Governor Title. It's MINE!
She is, but then again Genghis Khan was a Great General pre-RF, and was replaced by Timur, so Great People don't really deconfirm leaders if they have someone who could feasibly replace them.
But then again, if we did get Hawai'i, I'd much rather have Kamehameha I lead them.
I'm not betting on Hawai'i in any update, but I'll put them as front-runners to appear in Civ 7.
Also more recently we got Simon Bolivar who was a Great General who was replaced with José de San Martin.
me too. I think Hawaii would be better with liliuokalani because i think they’d be better as a cultural agriculture civ than an expansionist one, and kamehameha was the ruler who united the islands so he feels like generally expansionist to me.
Imo, Oceania can and should have 3 civ’s in future games
Maori: domination w/ small culture bonus. Leader from Musket Wars.
Tonga: expansionist settlers with generalist bonuses to settling small islands. This should be the start at sea civ
Hawaii: culture and religion focused
It’s interesting that the whole Jurchen history seems to revolve around founding states for other peoples. It sounds like they could actually be a dedicated espionage civ, perhaps with a secondary focus in dom or culture.
That’s really cool, yeah I think espionage and diplomacy would be a good fit for them.
To be fair, Seondeok did a lot more than that. She built numerous observatories—most famously the one that names her leader ability—for the sole focus to help farmers (hence the food for farms adjacent to the Seowons), and ushered in a societal focus on arts, sciences and literature.
I think she’s a great fit for what korea is in civ 6, and a good leader choice in general. I’d like to see Taejo or Gwanggaeto as an alt leader for Korea to mix it up though.
I agree she is a good choice for Korea. Cheomseongdae is the name of her agenda though. Her ability is Hwarang which provides more science and culture to cities with governors.
But most of these claims are false. Only observatories that were built in her time was one-Cheomseongdae. She did nothing but promote Buddhism to ease dark times in her reign.They lost 100 castles during her reign and was on the brink of extinction. If it weren't for her successor ( Muyeol ) Silla would have been wiped out.
nah Should have been Sejong. Fraxis only chose her cause she was first Queen in Korean history. They would not have chosen her if she was male.
Well I was originally expecting Sejong to return as well. That being said she still plays exactly how he would have if he were in the game which I'm fine with.
She wasn't fitting to be in the game. During her reign Silla was in literal "dark age" It is only thanks to Muyeol that Sillia managed to bounce back strong and unified Korea. Muyeol should have been the leader- Seondok kinda gets credited for hard work Muyeol did.
literally isn’t true. She promoted a great deal of literature, culture and sciences in general.
the idea that she only promoted buddhism and nothing else is a common, but historically unsupported trope used originally by misogynists to justify why the first regnant queen of Korea was bad. While she was a poor military leader, her feats in science, arts and literature are worth noting.
no she didn't I can't find any examples that she promoted science! She was deeply into Buddism to ease the dark times Sillia went through. And what literature? Give me name of book that she wrote/promoted.
They probably wanted to not focus Korea strictly on the Joseon period, so instead of Sejong they thought that Seondeok would probably be the closest to him.
Even if she didn't personally build the astronomy tower, it was built during her reign and that was enough info for the devs to develop her into a science leader for Korea.
promoting literature doesn’t mean promoting a specific book.
Basically, Seondeok’s early rule, while Silla was not being invaded by Baekje, was focused on improving the lives of the peasantry. This involved on modernizing various farming tactics, building observatories (Cheomseongdae is the only surviving one, but it’s also the oldest surviving observatory in the world, meaning observatories built around that time didn’t last a long time, so historical records are the only way we know she built more than just that one). She also promoted studying of literature and enjoying the arts during her reign. This involved improving the states of various institutes where these things were available, and making them generally more accessible.
The falsehood that she solely focused on buddhism stems from the fact that during the baekje invasion, she built a large pagoda. the reason why it was built was because she wanted to avoid dealing with a civil war while being invaded. It was actually a very smart move, as it made people more assured in Silla’s longetivity. Likewise, she likely would’ve been much more successful than she already was, if she didn’t have to deal with multiple revolts due to her gender. She and her highly adept court, however, quickly defeated these revolts. She used buddhism as a tool to keep her people together to avoid dealing with civil war alongside invasion, not as a tool to wish the invasion away, which is the ahistorical rumor usually brought up to discredit Seondeok.
Regarding the loss of numerous castles to Baekje, at the time when those castles were invaded, Seondeok was bedridden from illness and had a regent calling the shots.
Seriously, go read up on her reign. A lot of your arguments against Seondeok have been debunked, are taken out of context, or are outright incorrect.
I've read up and my sources says two things on her reign
Positives: She promoted buddism and built various temples and many Buddist text books depict her as wise leader. Also she was good at spotting talents and basically gave futile ground for future king ( like Muyeol ) to work with
Negatives: praise she got from Buddist texts are likely to be a state propaganda. A lot of Korean historians all agree that Seondok's time was full of turmoil and strife. Many people agree that her promotion of Buddism happened as a form of escapism. They also argue that by encouraging and sponsoring to build Buddist temples this had caused life of avarge people to suffer- after all who but peasantry would physically build these temples? Some historians even say that She is a terrible leader hidden behind the mask of being "first female ruler in Korea." Such example can be seen when in 3rd year of her reign she built Bunhwangsa temple to get rid of Baekje with the power of Buddha but she lost so many castles as a result.
it was built DURING her reign not BY her. The historical accounts only said it was built during her reign- no mention of who promoted it. It might have been her father's idea but he died before he could promote it or one of unnamed government official. who knows.
ok clearly, i’m not going to change your mind about this topic, so i don’t see a point in continuing an argument on this point.
All I’ll say is that Seondeok was a very successful leader considering the circumstances. You can believe what you want about that, you can disagree, that’s all immaterial. What we know about her says that she is worthy of civ. If you disagree, go build a mod to replace her with Sejong, or wait for @Deliverator to put him in via the civ 5 stuff.
Sejong was a great leader, don’t get me wrong, but it’s good to rotate leader choices. Seondeok was the best choice considering the play style they wanted, although I would’ve picked Gwanggaeto or Taejo if they didn’t mind a more militaristic Korea.
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