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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It sounds kind of like Civ V Venice to me. You couldn't control your non-capital cities' production queues, but you could buy things with gold if you felt the city needed it sooner rather than later.
     
  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I agree that the Native civs should have been their first priority, as they were, but the Asian civs could definitely use some cleanup. Japan feels particularly bad (Ikko-ikki as the hero unit for Feudal Japan feels particularly wrong...), but China also feels like a weird amalgam of Ming and Qing. India probably has similar problems, but I'm less familiar with that period in Indian history.
     
  3. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Sounds annoying. If features like that were common in that iteration, I'm glad I skipped and never played Civ5.

    To be fair, the era covered by AoE3 spanned the latter Ming AND earlier Qing, so such a juxtaposition is actually quite appropriate there.
     
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  4. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It's challenging to get the hang of, but once you get Venice's money machine rolling, it's actually pretty fun.
     
  5. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Yes, but the distinction doesn't feel era-based.

    Venice was something of a gimmick civ, somewhat like Civ6's Maori but more so. But it was a fun gimmick, much more so than it sounds on paper.
     
  6. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir King

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    I understand that unable to control production queue can be quite annoying to players - it was also quite annoying to feudal kings who had the dream of an empire as he cannot actually control everything of his vassals, so that's also kind of realistic.

    Under the current game mechanism, I would image a "decentralized" (more like specialized) system consist of 3 levels:

    1. Capital, gov plaza city, diplo quarter city, city with a governor - you control everything. There are also some bonus tied to population. (Major cities. Industrial powerhouse)
    2. Non-governor cities - you still control production queue, but you cannot control which citizen work which tile, so no micro management. There are also some kinds of limits to district numbers/types. Internal trading with these cities give more food/production yields than usual. (Peripheral cities. Provide food and resources)
    3. Vassals - like Civ 5, you cannot access production queue, they will only build builders and district buildings, similar to a CS. They also only yield gold, luxury, and strategic resources to you. These cities will have a big unit purchase discount during war. (Vassals or colonies.)

    If we implemented a system like this, for federalized civs like a future Native American civ they can have a bonus in internal trading with non-governor cities, for feudalism/colonialism civs like a future Portugal they can have a bonus in vassal cities, etc.
    Although I feel like, instead of having decentralization as a civ ability, a more branched civ tree (a combination of Civ 5 social policies and Civ 6 single civic tree) with centralization on the one branch and decentralization on the other branch would work the best, as you will have some flexibility between centralization and decentralization, but not as flexible as swapping policy cards every 10 turns.


    The only thing I'm not sure about a potential vassalage in Civ 6 is that, I don't know how a vassal city would interact with the loyalty mechanism.
     
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  7. untitledjuan

    untitledjuan Warlord

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    It also happens with Gran Colombia. During Simón Bolívar's presidency it was just called Republic of Colombia or Colombia and it's people and laws referred to themselves just as Colombians. I guess the game uses "Gran Colombia" to include Venezuelans and Ecuadorians, not just modern day Colombians, which remained after the separation of Venezuela and Ecuador.
     
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  8. Starina

    Starina Chieftain

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    Why are civfanatics sure there will be Vietnam and Kublai Khan? :confused:
     
  9. Cywil

    Cywil Chieftain

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    Two months ago:

     
  10. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

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    From what I've read up on these things, focusing on the linguistics, the Haudenosaunee was just a fairly wide term (one of them, there were many) that they gave when pushed for an ethnonym. The Confederacy itself was called the 5 nations, league of peace, these sort of things. Haudenosaunee as such isn't so much about Iroquois being offensive ("Mohawk" literally means "Cannibals", whereas Iroquois isn't even a word we found in any langauge... we can but guess as to what it means and where it comes from), but more of a founding myth mixed with US ethnic politics. Put in other words, "Haudenosaunee" was most likely adopted because you can put that on a password where you can't do that with Mohawk or Seneca and putting "Iroquois" on there would be seen as giving in to the US' view of things.
    Mohawks are fine with being called Mohawks. Chinese are fine with being called Chinese, except when called Chinese by the Japanese, because that's seen as a slur. Iran changed its name from Persia, because that was a Greek name given to them but Abbysinia changed its name to Ethiopia (Blackface) because while insulting and foreign, it carried higher prestige in Europe. Name politics are a fairly common thing starting with 18?th century and Haudenosaunee, being a random monk's attempt at spelling a word he'd heard in English, in a langauge almost no longer spoken by those people themselves (most of them today speak Mohawk, which can't pronounce H at the start of a word, nor distributes the nasal vowels signified by 'au' in that way), is no different in this regard.
    I'm just kinda sad that since they now got people and media to opt for their chosen name, they didn't also change its spelling to reflect the orthographies (developed by none other then those people themselves) or modern English conventions to spell it. I realise it comes down to the whole thing with politics/bureaucracy where their passports say "Haudenosaunee" and so do their websites. But changing it to some ASCII-friendly version of Hodínöhšö:ni:h, or even Rodinoshoni (to reflect the fact you will only ever learn/hear Mohawk in any game or movie out there) would have probably gone a long way towards people seeing it as a natural thing to do rather than an understandable, but confusing replacement of a common word for this weird chimera of Haute couture, dinosaurs and knees. But that's ultimately up to them and how they want to present both themselves and their language(s) to the world.

    Is this about the "Dhanví-gaja" in HK? If so, you could contact Catoninetales_Amplitude on this forum and propose a change. The names of units and buildings are still suspect to change and can do so if someone proposes a good alternative. I know that their Haudenosaunee unit has gone through several iterations already (used to be Mohawk Warrior, then changed to Rotiskenrakehte [warriors/Mohawk] and has been changed since to something else).
     
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  11. Andrew Johnson [FXS]

    Andrew Johnson [FXS] Chieftain

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    Oh sure. I was thinking legal / public outcry, not just poor historical choices. Even in academia, Asian history (ESPECIALLY non-China, Japan, India) gets the short shrift. Some of it has to do with records (Cambodia just doesn't have the same level of detail as China or Vietnam), some of it has to do with some outdated notion of "we must study the Great Civilizations of the World," most of it has to do with a lack of language skill + not high priorities in home countries (wonder what happened to hurt the development of Cambodian universities...)
     
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  12. Jeppetto

    Jeppetto Prince

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    Now that I've used to Eagle Pursuit being recognized by wise Pundmaker face, I will have to use to recognizing him as "Just thrown Bowling Ball" Basil. Great.

    I wasn't thinking precisely of denouncement. I re-watched some Suleiman videos and I think the reason they seemed similar is because Basil also did one gesture of thworing both his hands up which reminded me of Suleiman, but they are indeed not the same.
     
  13. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    looks like Anatolia seems to really rub off certain body language on its leaders, lol
     
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  14. Jeppetto

    Jeppetto Prince

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    Honestly, for Civ 7, I'd hope If they want to keep this rapid expansion concept, they'd make both "Tall" and "Wide" (or in the newest interation "Diplomacy" and "Economy") go for as many cities as possible, but differentiate between Tall/Diplomacy where you can't control any of them entirely unless directly settled by you on your continent (City-State vassals, Free-City protege, Foreign-Content colonies...) and Wide/Economy, where you fully own and gain rewards from but also must fully manage cities you are trying to hold together within same culture. With Honor/Military going naturally wide through conquest, where they instead would have to impose strong culture to decrease the conquest unrest penalties, all three playstyles would be easier to balance as they all would be based on multiplications of cities, but each would still have its own flavour.

    Tall could evolve into the grey eminence, venice-like, diplomatic playstyle, where you fund underdog cities to rebel for their freedom, buy favour of city-states, use governors to maintain taxation of colonies; Wide would be about rapidly settling cities that are bound by the same culture forcibly, focused on cult of national pride etc. Generally what I mean is that I consider evoltuion of Venice good concept for Tall playstyle fitting modern standards rather than unexecutable gimick from past.

    Exactly this, plus Military playstyle (Civ 5 Honor). It even looks with Military/Economic/Diplomatic policies and the three lines of Governments like something they wanted but ended up less feelable.
     
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  15. Andrew Johnson [FXS]

    Andrew Johnson [FXS] Chieftain

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    Great text on the Haudenosaunee! At Cornell there were scholars working on those issues in upstate NY, but it wasn't something I was really aware of the predominance of Mohawk in the local languages. The area was on unceded Cayuga land, and they were trying to re-establish a reservation; it was a big deal, but I was focused elsewhere in the world at that time. What you've said here is really fascinating. (Audra Simpson, BTW, has a fantastic book, Mohawk Interruptus).

    Re: Humankind... yes, I was referring to that. But I don't think it would be appropriate for me to make a suggestion to them, seeing as I work for their competitor.
     
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  16. Revanchist

    Revanchist Warlord

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    Since you seem to have a specialty with south east asian history/linguistics, did you have any influence on the design of the Khmer? Do you think they are fine as is, or have you been looking forward to changing their abilities around a bit?
     
  17. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

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    I would try something like this:
    Decentralization and vassal states historically were general a form of civilized tribute in exchange for "protection". I know it's a big simplification, but sometimes converting the real world to the game mechanic needs it. Based on this concept perhaps something like that.
    - When the city is your vassal you can establish tribute a city has to pay you. x faith, x science x culture x gold x resources x units per y turn, etc. (customizable like AI trade deals)
    - Vassal city acts like a Civ V puppet. They do on their own, build whatever they want and their only aim is to pay your "tribute".
    - The vassal city has a level of loyalty or not to confuse with the loyalty mechanism which is already in the game: level of submission. The higher tribute you demand lower submission. The lower tribute you demand higher submission.
    - Mechanic here is "push your luck" every 10 turns you can renegotiate your tribute, but if you outbid there is a probability your vassal city will revolt
    - When revolted. Vassal City don't pay you a tribute and you have x turns to reestablish order (military/civil units missions/renegotiate tribute on much worse conditions)
    - If the order is not restored in 10 turns tour vassal becomes independent.
     
  18. ButtBillionaire

    ButtBillionaire Warlord

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    I've been suggesting Elsa Laula as the leader of a hypothetical Sámi civ not just because she would contribute to evening out the male-female ratio, but also because she was a genuinely interesting personality. The English Wikipedia article on her is unfortunately criminally lacking compared to the Norwegian one, but if I had to describe her in short terms based on what I've read, I'd describe her as uncompromisable, enduring and unmatched for her time in terms of activism, both for Sámi and for women. To quote her still-living grandchild: "I don't understand what that woman was made of. She was so strong, she stood tall, spoke Sámi fluently and taught it to her children. She was proud of being Sámi, and I am so proud of what she did for the Sámi. We live off the work she did, after all."
     
  19. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    The chola were born to be a civ that makes good use of vassal and puppet states, seeing as most of SE Asia, as well as Bengal and Orissa, became vassal states of the Chola Empire.

    In the current form of the game, I’d imagine the Chola would be best served by gaining an option to turn captured cities into mercantile city states with a suzerainity to the Chola, and either a generic suzerain bonus or a suzerain bonus thematically designed from city states like Pagan, Srivijaya and others which were vassalized under the Chola empire.
     
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  20. Kjimmet

    Kjimmet Chieftain

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    New privated video in NFP playlist!
     
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