[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Honestly I'd rather not see the Iroquois portrayed as stereotypical treehugging eco-Indians anyway. Might as well have "the Native Americans" back led by Chakotay at that point. :p
     
  2. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    Probably a tangent, but my one issue with that graphic by Lordeus is how debatable that the 'equivalent civilizations' thing is. While it makes sense, I think the example of Celts and Scotland exposes the problem with this; with Gaul in the game too, it is clear that their thinking does not always involve using one civ to represent a range of related cultures. They may sometimes have multiple of these supposedly interchangeable civs.

    For another example, I don't feel that Khmer being in the game rules out having Siam. So far they seem to like using one civ to represent mainland southeast Asia, but we can't guarantee that will continue- they could easily have both of those, or one of those plus Burma, etc.

    It is also the case that (so far) there has not been a game with both Sumeria and Assyria, so that could be considered a 'regional rotation'. Austria and Hungary the same could be argued for also- they may not speak related languages or anything, but Khmer and Siam are not the same language family either. I have seen people argue Scythia is in the place of Huns.

    Of course some examples, e.g. 'Native Americans' for Sioux are more clear cut.
     
  3. Andrew Johnson [FXS]

    Andrew Johnson [FXS] Warlord

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    Very true. Siamese (Thai) incorporates a lot of "high" vocab from Khmer (Cambodian), and religious texts are still written in Khmer script (but Pali language). While French and Latin are much closer than Thai and Khmer (the latter are, as you say, not in the same family, don't have the same script; Thai is tonal while Khmer is not) one might see this as a question of "why have France when you have Rome?"

    Also one could take a pass at that list and cut those civilizations who would not approve of being in the game, or who have prohibitions on depictions of the ancestors.
     
  4. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    A.K.A. The Pueblo and the Aboriginal Australians, to my knowledge.
     
  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Wilhelmina doesn't trade? :p
    I think the references are there in gameplay, but subtle.

    I was only relating it to fact that Vietnam has guerilla warfare tactics especially in woods and rainforests. There would be no reason why a unique unit couldn't have it though. It was the Iroquois guerilla tactics that the American revolutionaries copied to defeat the British. :p

    To be fair that chart was made pre NFP, and before Gaul and was even announced, so I think saying that Scotland equals Celts, was a relatable comparison at the time, considering in Civ 5 their capital was Edinburgh. :mischief:

    Also we got Vietnam as a second mainland SEA civ.
     
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  6. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Maritime trade. I see your point, but it really isn't that much of a bonus.
     
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  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I think prioritizing building harbors in their unique ability, over commercial hubs, is supposed to reference it but I agree that they don't get direct bonuses for trading across the water.

    I think the closest thing to maritime trading bonuses in the game is actually Phoenicia's bireme which prevents traders from being pillaged within 4 tiles of the unit, which is similar to Lisbon's suzerain ability already. :mischief:
     
  8. AntSou

    AntSou Deity

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    I disagree there. I think the incorrect assumption there was by Lordeus, who chose to associate Scotland with the Celts.

    I see the Gauls as the only true Celtic representatives in the game. Scotland is imo another variant of the Anglophone sphere in a game packed with them.
     
  9. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    I think Firaxis' original intention was that Scotland was the Celtic representation, but they later realized that some of the fanbase (*cough*we*cough*) received that poorly due to the very Anglo-Norman and especially British character of Civ6's Scotland and so added the Gauls in NFP. I don't think there's any evidence for the kind of long-term plan that some people here have attributed to Firaxis.
     
  10. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    I am aware, my point is that new civs added with NFP has exposed the flaw in the thinking behind that graphic. It was always erroneous to suggest Scotland ruling out further Celtic civs imo (regardless of if you consider Scotland Celtic representation at all or not). And, yes, I completely forgot about Vietnam. I think that further reinforces my point, as if we can have them along with Khmer, I see no reason why Khmer and Siam should be considered interchangeable.

    My criticism was of Lordeus, not the developers, so we aren't in disagreement exactly. As for who are considered "true Celtic representatives", as Alexander's Hetaroi points out, the Celts had a Scottish capital in Civ 5. So it is debatable whether or not Firaxis regards them as Celtic representation, but also imo it is an ultimately unimportant question. My whole point is that that they may sometimes add multiple related civs to the game.

    Another example is Scandinavia- Norway in Civ 6 does admittedly fit the 'viking' slot Denmark did in Civ 5, but we do also have Sweden in both games, which also is culturally very closely related. Perhaps it is unlikely, as these countries seem to be mostly used most importantly as Viking representation, but in the future they could have a Danish or Norwegian leader from a later period, e.g. Margaret I, Christian IX, Haakon IV. Regardless, it seems weird to consider Norway and Denmark as equivalents when Sweden is separately in the game also.
     
  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I agree with the notion that both Khmer and Siam can appear together in a game. Though it's quite reasonable to also see that Khmer was in Civ 4 and didn't return in Civ 5, in which Siam appeared instead.

    One way to differentiate is at least make Siam have abilities and uniques around the Industrial Era, considering SEA usually gets civs based around the Medieval Era. Lady Trieu was the only exception that I can think of.
     
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  12. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    I generally agree with this assessment, including the categorization of the Mapuche. The only thing I might change is that you could view Austria in V as succeeding the HRE in IV.

    Philippines is a surprisingly popular proposition, but I just don't see it happening. At least Vietnam was an empire...Philippines are really more of a vassal kingdom for most of their existence, were never very imperialist or expansionist, and fall quite comfortably into city-state territory.

    However, if at any point the civ franchise decides to broaden gameplay and call its civs "nations" or "cultures" or "peoples" as opposed to empires, I could absolutely see Philippines being a frontrunner for new additions.
     
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  13. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    Yes, but that ignores the other examples I have given. That chart doesn't simply note that they alternated- like I said, the same is true of Sumeria and Assyria. And yet those aren't being lumped together on the same chart. The chart basically equates the two civs, the same way it does for Sioux and Native Americans (which is reasonable in that case).

    Anyway I would accept that ultimately it is a very trivial thing I am debating here, someone's opinion on a completely unofficial chart, but I was just using it to highlight a logical error I've seen made before.

    The faulty logic which that chart uses, basically suggesting there is one mainland SEA slot which Siam and Khmer might alternate for (now disproved, as you rightly pointed out by Vietnam), and that there is one Celtic slot (which it claimed Scotland filled, but now we have Gaul too), has been used a number of times in conversations I've seen on this site.
     
  14. Codeword Iroquois

    Codeword Iroquois Warlord

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    Which just means some bonus better suited towards the Iroquois if they get in. Longhouse UI? Some sort of Confederacy (of the Iroquois variety) based UU?
     
  15. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'm sure the layout of the chart would change if they updated the information and civs from the NFP now that we have Babylon, Gaul and Vietnam.
     
  16. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

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    Absolutely. It was just a hypothesis in case they really want to reduce European countries representation in the game. I think it is rather odd they didn't add Portugal yet, that is why I thougth of this.

    My first reaction when I read this was: "This is non sense! How dare you even think of that!".

    Then I remember they put Maria Theresa as a leader for Germany in Civilization II, at a time where they couldn't figure out the difference between the Frankish Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and Germany, and Germany and Austria. So, fair enough! Even we went from the Franks to the Hungarian: what a journey! It is not even as dumb as putting the Iroquois and the Sioux in the same line. Does it mean it reduce to almost 0% the odd of witnessing the inclusion of the Frank empire in the game? Nooooooooo.....

    @Duke William of Normandy (down there): Let's be frank: I do not care of lingering about the name. As long Charlemagne makes it! I did my best....
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  17. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    We could just brand it as the Carolingian Empire... :mischief:
     
  18. Birch617

    Birch617 Warlord

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    I wouldn't mind a Carolingian Civ but please give the same type of Love/Focus that Europe has in game to other areas of the world
     
  19. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    May I suggest a more modern Leader, if it pleases my fellow Civ Fanatics? Sir Seretse Khama.

     
  20. cosmicmangobear

    cosmicmangobear Warlord

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    On the issue of Celtic representation, I would have vastly preferred medieval Ireland and modern Belgium over blob Gauls and British Scotland. Oh well, maybe in Civ7...
     
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