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Civilizations selection, Historical Spawning Dates, Civil Wars & Revolutions

Discussion in 'Gedemon's Civilization, a total overhaul project' started by Gedemon, Nov 22, 2017.

  1. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Second draft:


    Before starting a game:
    • Each player select a Civilization from a fixed list
    • Each Civilization in the list is defined by name, icon/flag, starting location, spawning date, ethnicity
    • Your Civilization also define a culture group of the same name/ethnicity, but has no unique attributes (units, buildings, abilities...)
    • Multiple independent culture groups will be defined by name, starting region, unique attributes, ethnicity and a starting affinity level with the other culture groups

    Culture Groups:
    • All culture groups will spread/merge on the map using various migration mechanisms
    • Depending of a Civilization current policies, a city would have access to the unique attributes of the most represented culture group at its location
    • A city will "assimilate" other culture groups in its Civilization's specific culture group at a rate dependent of Era/Policies and affinity level
    Relation Values:
    • Each culture group has a global relation value with the Civilization owning a tile they're present on (including cities)
    • the Civilization own culture group also have a relation value
    • the relation value represent the opinion of the Civilization current government, it's change each turn by a value which is calculated from population needs, pondered by policies
    • For the foreign groups a relation penalty is added to the base value depending of the affinity level with the Civilization own culture group
    • For other Civilizations culture group, the relation penalty is pondered by the current diplomatic relations.
    • There will be a special Separatists culture group not linked to any Civilization/Location and with a bigger relation penalty, Separatists spawn in cities which are far from a Civilization capital (pondered by trade routes efficiency and eras/policies)

    Stability:
    • Stability (in a city or map's tiles of a Civilization) is calculated based on the relation value and the % of representation of all culture groups at this location
    • When stability fall under some threshold in a city, the following will happen in order:
      • Revolt (production loss, some damage to city or/and nearby units/improvements for a few turns)
      • Rebellion (spawn rebel units around the city)
      • Revolution (spawn rebel units and the city change ownership to a temporary Civilization, with a turn timer)
    • When a city is in Revolution, the nearby cities stability is lowered
    • If other cities join the Revolution before the end of the turn timer, a war can start
      • Civil War if it's the own Civilization culture group that has caused the Revolution
        • Both side are merged at the end of a Civil War.
      • Independence War if another culture group has caused the Revolution
        • At the end of an Independence War, three possibilities:
          • Merge back the cities with the original Civilization
          • Merge the cities with another Civilization when it's that Civilization's culture group that has caused the Revolution
          • Create a new Civilization when it's the Separatists culture group that has caused the Revolution
    • If the Revolution ends before starting a war, then the city will chose to join a Civilization, based on proximity and relation values (that Civilization could be the old owner)
    Spoiler Original post :
    In this thread I'd like to discuss how to implement dynamic civilizations in the mod.

    Here is a first draft for a possible design:

    Before starting a game:
    • for each player select an ethnicity (for the units/city art style and spawning location), a name, a civ icon and a spawning date
    • or select a pre-designed civilization (maybe allowing edition of the name, icon, spawn date/location)
    • "random" would pick a predesigned civilization
    • select the starting and maximum number of player, spawning a new civ would not be possible when the maximum is reached, but splitting should still be possible, up to an absolute limit (which would be around 50 civs, the maximum civs in game is 63, but we need a buffer representing all ethnicities to manage temporary civilizations holding cities during a Revolution)

    Dynamic History:
    • design a kind "Civilization Tree", that would allow for example to start the game as a "Celtic Tribe" and finish as France or England (or any modern nation emerging from European colonization), or start the game as a "Germanic Tribes" and finish as France, England, Germany...
    • the evolutions could happen on selecting a new government, or after a civil/independance war.
    • when a civil/independance war start, allow the player to select which side to play (and make sure his favorite units follow that side)

    Culture Groups:
    • those groups represent each civilization on the map's tiles, using a culture diffusion (or population migration) mechanism from tiles to tiles
    • each group has a global "relation value" with the Civilization owning a tile they're present on (including cities)
    • the Civilization own culture group also have a "relation value"
    • the "relation value" represent the opinion of the Civilization current government, it's change each turn by a value which is calculated from population needs, pondered by policies, and for the foreign groups a "foreign penalty" is added to the base value and is pondered by the current diplomatic relations.
    • there will be a special "Separatists" culture group not linked to any civilization and with a bigger "foreign penalty", Separatists spawn in cities which are far from a Civilization capital (pondered by trade routes efficiency and eras/policies)

    Stability:
    • stability (in a city or map's tiles) is calculated based on the "relation value" and the % of representation of all culture groups at this location
    • when stability fall under some treshold in a city, the following will happen in order: Revolt (production loss, some damage to city or/and nearby units/improvments for a few turns), Rebellion (spawn rebel units around the city) or Revolution (spawn rebel units and the city change ownership to a temporary civilization, with a turn timer)
    • when a city is in Revolution, the nearby cities stability is lowered
    • if other cities join the Revolution before it ends, a civil/independance war can start (independance wars are revolutions on other landmasses than the capital)
    • if the revolution ends before starting a civil/independance war, then the city will chose to join a civilization, based on proximity and relation values (that civilization could be the old owner)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
    PeterChu and dunkleosteus like this.
  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Some thoughts and Comments on this...

    Let's take a fairly well-known example and follow the branchings/influences:

    Original 'Tribe' - Britons (Stone Age inhabitants of the British Isles)
    1st Influence: Celts - Invaders from Continental Europe
    2nd Influence: Romans - invaders from Continental Europe, replaced Celts in most of the area, brought in advanced Technologies and Civics
    3rd Influence: Germans (Specifically, Angles, Saxons) - invaders from Continental Europe, reduced Civics, added Social Policies
    4th Influence: Scandinavians (Specifically, Norse Vikings) - Invaders from Scandinavia
    5th Influence: Normans (French-Influenced Scandinavian Norse) Invaders from Continental Europe, brought Technologies, changed Civics and Social Policies

    The result of all this is English, which describes both an Ethnic and Linguistic group. They could become part of a larger group called British (a return to the original Stone Age title of the group), but since that designation is specifically Geographic it includes everyone who lives in the British Isles, while British Empire is a Political, not Ethnic or Cultural group.

    Reproducing this sequence of outside influences would be virtually impossible in any given game, so I suggest the 'definitions' would have to be 'broken down': English would be defined as using certain Civics and Social Policies and speaking a language recognizable as having a certain percentage of the real English antecedents: original Briton, Celtic, Latin, and German.

    Modern "France' and 'Germany' could be similarly described. However, both of those countries have strongly-defined Sub-Sets of their Group even today: I have personally experienced the sharp border between the Bavarian 'Culture/Religious/Linguistic' norm and that of the rest of Germany (Prussia was another 'distinct' outlier before it was virtually dissolved by 'ethnically cleansing' East Prussia and forcing most of the 'Prussians' to move out in 1945) and areas of France like Normandy and the area south of Lyon still have distinct linguistic/Social Policy differences from the Parisian/central France 'norm'. I don't think the modern Civ 'results' will, in most cases, be exactly and only the same as modern Nation States, but have to include a number of sub-sets and alternatives.

    Taking that backwards, many of the groups currently identifiable as having separate characteristics within a larger Group started out as independent 'Tribes'. Modern Germany and Germans started, for example, as separate tribes of Suevi, Attacotti, Bavaria (Bavarians), Saxones (Saxons), Tuetones, et al and received significant influences from Romans, Scandinavians (Goths, Vandals, etc) and, much later, modern French and English. Modern 'France' has a set of prior Influences almost as knotty as the Britons.

    - And let's not get started on China and India, neither of which is really a Monolithic State - they include numerous Groups, some of which are so linguistically different they have to use a 'common' language to communicate with the rest of the 'country'.

    The 'Blending' of language, culture, Social Policy and Civics within a Cv composed of various groups accelerates dramatically later in the Game: mass-market publications like newspapers and magazines (Industrial Era), radio and television (Modern-Atomic Era) tend to homogenize Groups that share a political identity, especially if one group is appreciably larger than the others - there should be an Influence Measure, in which some Groups, because of higher Technology, larger numbers, more Universal and Inclusive Social Policies and Civics, tend to eventually 'submerge' others: the original Greek City States all had separate Politics, Social Policies and Civics, but in modern Greece most of the differences have been Ironed Out. Likewise, even with all the various historical Influences, in modern Britain there are few who would identify themselves as citizens of 'Wessex' or 'Kent' of 'Strathclyde' or 'Dal Riada' today: the variations have been submerged in the general English and Scottish identity over the past 800 - 1000 years.
     
  3. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    So one option is to have a linear Civ tree and simply change the name of the Culture group at certain stages. Or let the player choose in certain Eras which Civ to become. So you'd start with a generic group (like idk proto-europeans) and then the player can choose which (european) Civ to become.

    Another more difficult way to achieve a dynamic culture for Civs could be to let the player start with some prehistoric group/culture, and then have the Civ "evolve" or even change its culture group during the game due to various influences (like Boris describes above). Similar to weapon upgrades you could have majority culture for your Civ which would determine which "Civ" it currently is, and award unique units, abilities etc. If a neighboring Civ spreads it's culture to you then

    Firstly you need to allow multiculturalism by reducing the current assimilation rate, to hinder all tiles turning into single mono-cultures. And then let 2+ cultures merge or give rise to a new (combined) culture.
    2+ culture groups sharing a tile will (in time) spawn a new culture, that could eventually spread to the entire Civ. Meaning that you're whole Civ could change its culture during the game. The only problem is the question of how to assign ownership of tiles.

    Maybe you could have a fun name mechanic where for e.g. Spanish + Norwegians = Spanish Norwegians or Norwegian Spanish. A silly and terrible example but I think you get the idea. And depending on the mixing and merging (which is influenced by trade/social policies etc) your Civ will change, in regards to language, ethnicity or even unique units etc.

    Another way to have a more dynamic Civ would be to more or less disconnect unique units/buildings from starting/pre-defined Civilizations and instead they can become accessible to the player depending more on culture mixing, settling, trading, warfare etc.

    If for e.g. you start or settle up in the cold north (maybe walking there with your Hunter/Gatherer units) and when you found coastal cities and imorove tiles close to the coast, then your culture could become either Britons, Norwegians etc. After meeting some basic conditions you could gain access to those unique units (maybe through applications/projects). You could develop Longships if your Civ has demand/need of good seafaring vessels and you have neighbors with rich cities, trade network etc. Attacking your neighbors coastal cities/trade routes could award you naval tech pts and allow applications like Longships and Berserkers as well as influence the culture or development of your Civ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Count this as the simplest, but also the least interesting, way to do it. For one thing, not all Into-Europeans were alike, and by no means did they all turn into European culture groups: Indo-European is named such because it includes groups that moved into areas from Europe to India, and 'spawned' such different cultures/Civs as Germans, Romans, Greeks, Persians, and most of the Civs/groups in India.

    Not so silly, when you do the research and consider the variations available and that actually happened. In fact, although about 1500 years earlier, the Celts who migrated into northern/central Spain mixed with the native 'Iberians' and spawned the 'Celtiberians' who fought the Romans for several hundred years and from whom the Romans 'borrowed' several of their own 'iconic' weapons: the long "Spanish" sword, the short Gladius, and the heavy throwing javelin, the Pilum.
    'Normans' were 'Northmen' settled in northern France - another 'mixed' group for sure.

    And some Cultures/Civs we think of as Specific are actually mixtures of even earlier Cultures: the Greeks migrated into Greece as Indo-Europeans, and Greek 'Culture' is a combination of Indo-European elements (Sky/Thunder Gods like Apollo and Zeus, battle carts/chariots drawn by horses, a Warrior 'class' that 'elects' the leader, etc.) and elements from the earlier groups living in Greece since the Ice Age (Agricultural Earth Mother Goddess like Hera, megalithic masonry, - even place names like Athens, which is a non-Greek word, linger). There are almost no modern 'Cultures' or Civs that do not have Influences on them from some other Groups, Cultures, Religions, or military and technological 'borrowings'.

    A lot, per your example, depends on Resources Available. Thinking on something like this back in early Civ V days, I hypothesized a 'build your own civ' system in which your Starting Position would have three sets of Basic Resources that governed how you began:
    Water - sources:
    River
    Lake
    Oasis
    Coast
    Food - sources:
    Fish, Shellfish, Whales from rivers, lakes, or coastal seas
    Plants with Gathering or Agriculture: Wheat/Oats/Rye/Barley ("Grains"), Rice, Potato, Maize, Berries (later, "Wine")
    Animals with Hunting or Husbandry: Deer, Cattle, Sheep/Goats, Horses, Bison
    Building Materials - sources:
    Clay
    Timber
    Stone
    (Marsh) Reeds

    Even with the very basic list of Food Sources here, that's potentially over 200 variations of Starting Position Resources, which is more variation in 'Civs' than the game can handle. Add the fact that usually there will be a choice of more than one Basic resource of one or more of the three types, and the potential variations would be enough to handle all possible 'starting cultures'.

    And, a lot of the Unique attributes of various Civs were not the result of resources/situation, but of resources available combined with Resources Absent. The Scandinavians were essentially the same Food From Husbandry and Agriculture group as the rest of northern-central Europe BUT, especially in the north and along the mountainous coast of Norway, agriculture was marginal at best and the animals suitable for Husbandry limited, so the Sea became the primary food source, and it was not a relatively benign set of rivers and lakes but the open, notoriously stormy North Sea - teaming with fish to eat and conditions to kill you quick in a reed boat. To exploit the sea resources, the Norse had to build very sturdy timber boats - and had plenty of timber handy and no real alternative Food Source once the population got past the numbers that limited agricultural land could support.
    Result: "Plowing the Auk's Meadow' in the iconic Norse phrase, in sturdy wooden longships and knorr 'roundships',with Celestial Navigation to bring those fishermen home. Couple that with access to Iron deposits in abundance and lucrative Targets along the North Sea coast in Britain, Ireland, Germany, France, etc. and the well-armed and armored 'Norse Raider' followed ...

    But note, anywhere in the world you have mountains coming right down to the sea, in places as different in other ways as northeastern Spain (Loret-de-Mar), the Dalmatian coast of the Adriatic, or Norway, the result is a 'Pirate Coast' where the local inhabitants make most of their living from the sea by fishing or raiding, and cannot be constrained by any central government on the other side of the coastal mountains...

    Finally, a lot of the Unique Attributes of Buildings, Improvements, and Units are a combination of both Resource/Social/Cultural/Technology combinations AND special needs of the situation for that Civ and Pure Randomness. Classic Example the Roman Legion, which started as a basic Decimal Organization spear-armed phalanx of personally-armed Citizens absolutely indistinguishable from any classical Greek City-State. Turning that into a primarily sword-armed flexibly-organized organization of heavily-armored and extremely well-trained men took an almost-unforeseeable combination of borrowed weaponry, changing Needs and Enemies, (if the first Roman opponents had been Scythians instead of Samnites or Etruscans, you can be pretty sure swordsmen would have never been their military priority, and the 'Legion' would have probably developed into a Byzantine-like organization of light and heavy cavalry with a few infantry auxiliaries) and Social Policy/Cultural peculiarities, a combination not found anywhere else in the world historically.

    I quit playing with the idea because I couldn't see how to recreate the absolutely specific requirements for each Unique and at the same time keep players from 'recreating' those requirements because they were playing as Rome just to get a chance to field Legions, or build early Paved Roads. I'm not so sure it's impossible on further thought, but part of the 'solution', I think, would be to create Classes of Unique (Units/Buildings/Improvements). You might 'select' a Class of Unique Unit to 'achieve', for instance Light Cavalry because you have Scythian/Hun/Hsung-Nu/Commanche neighbors, but within that 'Class' there could be:
    'Tarentine' style (Greek/Roman light cavalry with shields and javelins)
    'Thracian' style (light cavalry with sword, shield and javelins)
    'Bactrian' style (Near Eastern light cavalry with bows and javelins)
    'Persian' style (Persian light cavalry with javelins and thrusting spear)
    Prodromoi (Macedonian light cavalry with long lance)

    - and these are just examples from Classical Era Europe and the Near East, but indicate the variety that could still be introduced with this kind of system. In addition, of course, a common Counter to enemy/barbarian raiding historically was to simply hire as mercenaries some of the same type: the Athenians hired Scythian horse-archers, Alexander the Great incorporated several thousand Scythians into his army, Rome and Byzantium both hired Hunnic Cavalry, the Chinese hired the Hsung-Nu and their successors, and as late as the 19th century CE the US Army hired Apache 'light infantry' to hunt down Apache raiders...
     
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  5. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thank you both !

    From a coding and design perspective, my opening proposal doesn't seem viable, and I like some of yours, so I'll try to go your way.

    In the main thread, I think there was a quick discussion about civilization unique abilities and how the mod remove all of them because I'd like them to be aquired dynamically

    So we could try to design (amongst other things) how to possibly link unique attibutes (units, buildings, starting techs, ...) to some culture groups, how we could access them based on the representation of those culture groups in your "civilization", and of course how the players could influence the whole mechanism (exploration, combat, capture, settlement, policies...)

    Your Civilization would be fixed in name, with a specific "neutral" culture group (IE without specific abilities)

    It would help to define who "owns" a tile between multi-cultural civilizations (an "affinity" mechanism between your civilization specific "culture groups", and the independant culture groups represented on a tile ? or ignoring independant culture groups and use only % of the civilizations "culture group")

    There will also be the question about how/when to merge some culture groups (maybe with a legacy mechanism)

    About territory, for now this is not a requirement, but, "Dynamic History" being planned since the start, one of the pre-requisite will be to have YnAMP for (relative) TSL for Civilizations (or in the case of the culture groups, TSR, IE True Starting "Region")

    I don't want the mod to be limited to only one map, but it will be limited to a set of map from YnAMP with predefined areas.

    For example the Giant Earth, Greatest Earth and Terra Map from YnAMP share the same "Regions" table which are represented by rectangles of various size delimiting areas of the map.

    Currently it's used for excluded/exclusive resource placement, but we can also use it for placing "culture groups" (barbarian camps and goody hut could be a representation of populated areas)

    After that we can use some mechanisms for culture diffusion / population migration (independantly or linked to what's discussed in the Population thread)

    For example, a "Barbarian Camp" spawning in a certain region could be linked to a culture group of that region, then units spawning from that camp would "diffuse" that culture group on their path (or "convert"/"reduce" passively other culture/population at their location), and the type of spawned units could also depend of that group.

    And if we use "Technology diffusion" from combat, those barbarian units would influence the nearby civilizations research.

    Also, we may get an anouncement soon for a Civ6 Expension, which may include its own revolution/civil wars mechanism base on the recent interviews with Ed Beach, if it's the case, then I'll have to ponder if it would be better to wait to see Firaxis mechanism and if it's possible to hook on it (from my experience in Civ5, new features introduced by G&K and BNW were less modable than vanilla features, I mean without altering the source code, as they were more "hardcoded")
     
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  6. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    On thing that has to be included somehow is the 'mobility' of culture groups that are 'pre-Urban' during the game period. Just for historical examples, post 4000 BCE you had the second Indo-European movements (the 'Dorian Invasions' of Greek history), the move of the Huns from the borders of China to the borders of Rome, the move of the Apaches from the Canadian/US northeast to the American Southwest, and for a 'micro-example' in northern Britain, the move of the Picts from continental Europe, the Scotti from Ireland, and the Saxons from Germany, all within a 5 - 700 year period. Before they had large permanent installations (cities) cultural/population groups were pretty mobile, and the moves had considerable affect on the cultural/population composition of the places they moved from and the places they moved to.

    I hope Firaxis understands the difference between a Civil War and a Revolution. In a Civil War, the first goal of both sides is to control the original country, so the result of a civil war is almost Never a new country, but simply a changed old one. A Revolution, by contrast, is primarily Against the politics, policies or culture of the original country, so (if successful) almost always results in either a radically changed country or a brand new country or set of countries: Royal France into Republican/Imperial France, the British Colonies into the United States, Imperial Russia into the Soviet Union, and less obviously, when a Civil War turned into the Glorious Revolution, Semi-Absolute Monarchy England became Protectorate England turning into Parliamentary England...
     
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  7. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    I like the idea of growing/developing your own Civ as opposed to having all traits, units and abilities pre-determined, though I agree it makes sense to have historic Civilizations starting at a specific time (Era) for an Earth map. Maybe reducing uniqueness of Civ-specific units is a bad thing, but you could still retain naming and artstyle (at the very least) for the units in question. So a Roman swordsmen would be named and look like Legions even though they aren't that unique ability/stats-wise. I can understand the point that Boris brings up about players not wanting to have to recreate several specific conditions "just" to acquire a unique unit. But in my mind that is what makes the unit unique and also a part of what would keep the game dynamic and interesting. Knowing that you can always get the specific Legion unit just because you chose a certain Civ/Leader in 4000 BC without putting any effort into it, is not what I'd like to see anyway.

    About ownership of tiles, then I'd say that ownership should be determined by a mix of factors, but an overall order/priority list could probably be used. In my mind the player represents the executive branch of a Civilization/State, or in some abstract way the sum of decision makers. So you are ruling a Civ of subjects that are either mostly of one culture or a mix of several (especially if it is an empire). One way to implement multi-cultural Civs is to draft (or randomise) a list of "minor" cultures that exist within each starting Civ (major culture), so that each tile or City would have their own specific culture group(s). These could then merge or diverge during the game, shrink of grow depending on outside influence, policies etc. Each minor culture could possibly represent their own language group, ethnicity, religious independents or smaller variations due to local conditions. In general I would think that you should start out with a lot of different "minor" cultures (in Ancient-Medieval Eras) but during the coarse of the game (history) you'd see many of these merging into a grander nation-state cultures (with centralized authority).

    So how would ownership be determined? If control of tiles represents political influence, then I'd say that the initially the first one having claimed the tile will keep their control. If we could tie the control with the players efficacy of bureaucracy, tax burden, i.e. management then that would make the most sense. Also, and this is speculatory, but I believe that it has been common in history for areas and populations caught between 2 centres of power to want to stay independent and even go their own way. And in general, the further you are from wielding political power (for e.g. being an outer region or City) the more you generally have to gain by seeking independence (or fostering that belief at least). One option then is to have minor cultures compete for control over Cities, and that each culture in your Civ that is dominant in a City will stay loyal (and wish to stay united with the other cities), while minor cultures without dominant % in a City will resist conversion and seek independence.

    So if there's a contested tile that is under influence by 2 cities, or major/minor culture groups, then you could have a priority list for determining ownership each turn. Maybe something like:

    1. The first Civ/City controlling the tile will always keep control so long as they keep a military unit on the tile (military control / internal repression).
    2. If there's a war, then the other Civ gets ownership if they have a military unit on the tile (occupation)
    3. If none of the above, then proximity to adjacent controlled tiles or closest City (district?) can determine control. When calculating proximity it would be beneficial if you could take into account terrain movement cost (rivers, roads, naval routes) and technology level to determine control.
    4. Otherwise (or in combination with above) you can have religious affiliation determine control.
    5. Similarities or differences between the tile in question and neighboring tiles can also be used as a tie breaker. This could be terrain type, features, improvements.
    6. Lastly you could leave the tile uncontrolled, or even spawn an "independent" culture who takes control of the tile (in the scenario above, you'd lose control). All further contested tiles would then prefer the "independent" stance to either sides control.

    Another option (that is easier to implement?) could be defining a generic culture called "Independents" or even more specific ones for each Civ like: "Free Egyptians". These groups would then always be competing with all Civs at the edges of their influence, or between two Civs.

    Regardless of implementation and how we choose to design the cultural aspects, I'd say that players should be warned (notified) when tiles are about to shifting to their neighbors, or when the population is moving towards independence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
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  8. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    Good point, didn't realise more info had been released. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Great/Dark ages, Loyalty and Governors systems actually consists of. The expanding of diplomacy sounds promising as well. Also, they show a scene in the trailer of a typical plague doctor with the weird mask. I wonder if they'll include some disease mechanic, possibly linked to what they call "emergencies".

    Since we're having populations distributed on tiles, then it would be cool to have diseases spread similar to the migration mechanic. Tiles with a high population density will be more vulnerable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  9. Absolution

    Absolution Chieftain

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    How will all of this work for civilisations like Sumeria or Persia?
    Sumerians can't evolve into Babylonia or Iraq, it should evolve into a Sumerian entity which "stood the test of time". Isn't that what the game is all about?
    Persia, however, should not evolve at all, right? While its citylist would better change over time, it should remain Persia.

    I'm wondering about your philosophy of a civilisation in the game, and I may be too late / irrelevant here, but here are some of my thoughts regarding it -
    Does the fact that English people appeared as a solid group in a later stage should mean that they are less of a pure group than Romans or Egyptians are?
    The whole ethno-linguistic mixture in Great Britain could have happened in the early Bronze Age in an alternative history, resulting in English tribes invading Gaul and Scandinavia in 400 BC.
    My point is, if you define England as a civilisation / culture / ethnic group, you may give it a chance to start as early as any other civilisation in the game.
    Stages of a civilisation may be the political and social developments, reflected in the Policy tree, but I find it weird to consider the name "England" a Medieval Era innovation in the context of the game.
    Generally, I support late spawning of civilisations, but it should not be done as some kind of historical determinism.
    A proposed solution is - something similar to the BarbCiv mod of Civ4. The tribal / pre-civilised phase of a spawning civilisation will be more neutral, so that their identity will not have to be judged according to the exact civilisation that they are going to evolve into. When they do evolve, however, they evolve straight into "English people", or "Anglo-Saxon people" if you really want it :p
    Wide ethnic identities will be possible, such as an East Asian tribe that had been around for a while can develop into either a Chinese, Japanese, or soon a Korean civilisation.
    I don't know if this had been mentioned here before, but Ethnic cradles of civilisations must be implemented - an East Asian tribe will appear if it is somewhere nearby Chinese cities, and if England and France start in the original 4000BC spawn, they will start close to each other, and in any scenario not on a different continent.

    Hope you find some of these appealing
     
  10. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    I like the idea of randomized unique units. As far as Civs go, I wonder whether we should try to follow history or move away from it. Beyond ethnicities and generalized cultural groups, do we try to stick with history or diverge? I think either way I should be able to get as far as a Germanic tribe (European-type ethnicity), but from that point do we assign a historical name like "Saxon", "Angle" etc. or do we try to come up with new ones. A lot of names for different peoples have their roots in a moniker those people gave themselves or the land they're from. The root of Saxon is common with the root of Seax, a type of tool or blade. Angles share a common name ancestry with angle (as in a corner) and with anglers (as in fishermen) because the coastline of the land they were from was hook-shaped. If we went that way, we would generate a name for the tribe based on some pseudo-proto words for the culture type. The "Roman" empire was named after the founding capital, Rome. Whether you take your national name from something relating to your culture or something political like a central city could depend on how your civilization grew/appeared. If you spent a lot of time conquering your neighbors, its possible that you might name yourself after your capital city. If you culturally assimilated or grew more organically, your power would be less centralized and your people wouldn't identify with a single city.

    With talking about how cultures change over time, we could take inspiration from historical examples. If your people had a Germanic or Celtic culture and another Italic culture pressed a strong influence on you, you might see the resulting culture be somewhat like French or Spanish.

    For other examples (like a Sinitic culture imposing on a Germanic one) we might have to make something up. I think it would be interesting to represent the culture of an area with the language. Languages could update based on cultural influences at the start of each era. If city names are randomly generated based on the current language, it would give a flavour to the naming over time. For example, names of towns, cities and villages in English usually change independently of the language over time. A city might be given a name which means "King's town" when settled, but as language changes, the name might today be rendered as "Kingston" whereas other cities founded later are given names that look more modern to us, "Jamestown" for example. We see examples of this with cities in England such as Nottingham. The "ham" comes from the Old English word "ham" which meant "home". The city retained its spelling as the language changed around it.

    Some spellings or city names might change through each era. It would be interesting if the language spoken could transition from "Classical Roman" to "Medieval Roman" (although this might look more familiar if written as Latin).
     
  11. Hanny

    Hanny Chieftain

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    You can always look at how caveman to cosmos implemented this concept for their civ 4 mod, which works very well as a tribe of sapiens adopts dispirate cultures as it progress, giving access to cultural unique items, of course weith the newer civic tree and religion spread dynamic 6 may be a nicer way to do it. i wonder if the palace can spread your culture, then adopt in each era cultures, specific to each civ, for that time period, in cities that have the culture as a magority, by use of the civic invention of that cultureand adoption of it.
     
  12. Absolution

    Absolution Chieftain

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    What's going to happen to their leaders then?
    If you start with Frederick I as the Germanic Tribe and come under heavy influence by Trajan, will your leader change to Catherine or Victoria?

    I liked your first paragraph, but I think you then went too far.
    Some of the developments of the names you've mentioned there are based on your knowledge of cultural history of those cultures that are closer to you.
    In order to establish Chinese or Nubian cultures, you'd need not only to translate the English forms of "Kings-Town" to distant languages, but you'll actually have to figure out how an ancient Chinese mechanism of city-naming worked. It was probably different from what we know.

    Another problem is that much of the post-tribal divisions, those who were mentioned above as "developed" names, happened just a short while after the civilised cultural life of those groups came to exist.
    Germanic peoples had their separate tribal-national-factional identities long before they had kingdoms or possibly even cities.
    It would be inaccurate to make a Germanic Tribe become Vandals only at the Middle Ages in a game, as they already have 6 cities, 3 wonders and busy coastal trade.
    If they found a city on 4000 BC, than they should become Vandals on 4000 BC. On the other hand, if they spawn at 1300 AD, they still may be named Germanics, but only for a short period until they are fully established.
    Germanic Tribes as a name, in the context of the game, better describes Barbarians than it describes an early Civilisation.
    So my solution is to divide Barbarians into ethnic factions (Germanic may be one of those), and let them evolve into Civilisations with more concrete names.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  13. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Here is a second draft (OP updated)


    Before starting a game:
    • Each player select a Civilization from a fixed list
    • Each Civilization in the list is defined by name, icon/flag, starting location, spawning date, ethnicity
    • Your Civilization also define a culture group of the same name/ethnicity, but has no unique attributes (units, buildings, abilities...)
    • Multiple independent culture groups will be defined by name, starting region, unique attributes, ethnicity and a starting affinity level with the other culture groups

    Culture Groups:
    • All culture groups will spread/merge on the map using various migration mechanisms
    • Depending of a Civilization current policies, a city would have access to the unique attributes of the most represented culture group at its location
    • A city will "assimilate" other culture groups in its Civilization's specific culture group at a rate dependent of Era/Policies and affinity level
    Relation Values:
    • Each culture group has a global relation value with the Civilization owning a tile they're present on (including cities)
    • the Civilization own culture group also have a relation value
    • the relation value represent the opinion of the Civilization current government, it's change each turn by a value which is calculated from population needs, pondered by policies
    • For the foreign groups a penalty is added to the base value depending of the affinity level with the Civilization own culture group and, for other Civilizations culture group, is pondered by the current diplomatic relations.
    • There will be a special Separatists culture group not linked to any Civilization/Location and with a bigger penalty, Separatists spawn in cities which are far from a Civilization capital (pondered by trade routes efficiency and eras/policies)

    Stability:
    • Stability (in a city or map's tiles of a Civilization) is calculated based on the relation value and the % of representation of all culture groups at this location
    • When stability fall under some threshold in a city, the following will happen in order:
      • Revolt (production loss, some damage to city or/and nearby units/improvements for a few turns)
      • Rebellion (spawn rebel units around the city)
      • Revolution (spawn rebel units and the city change ownership to a temporary Civilization, with a turn timer)
    • When a city is in Revolution, the nearby cities stability is lowered
    • If other cities join the Revolution before the end of the turn timer, a war can start
      • Civil War if it's the own Civilization culture group that has caused the Revolution
      • Independence War if another culture group has caused the Revolution
      • Both side are merged at the end of a Civil War.
      • At the end of an Independence War, three possibilities:
        • Merge back the cities with the original Civilization
        • Merge the cities with another Civilization when it's that Civilization's culture group that has caused the Revolution)
        • Create a new Civilization when it's the Separatists culture group that has caused the Revolution

    • If the Revolution ends before starting a war, then the city will chose to join a Civilization, based on proximity and relation values (that Civilization could be the old owner)
     
  14. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Now I need a list of Civilizations for the mod, ~50 max.
     
  15. AJCB

    AJCB Chieftain

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    Do you envision including late Civs like America and Brazil? Former colonies might be better off modeled as actual break-away nations coming into existence as a result of Independence Wars?

    Also, how deeply split up do you intend to model Culture Groups? Probably not far as to split Occitan from Frankish, for example, or Uyghur from Han from Miao! Do you want to base them on more recent distinctions, or try to stick with those of a longer time frame (Mestizo or Aztec or Spanish, Boer or Afrikaans or Dutch or Germanic)?

    It seems as though the mechanics you have outlined would fit best with broad culture groups, probably emerging as close to pre-history as possible. After all, history is the game itself. From that basis I would take the commonly established geographically distinct ancient civilizations and keep going through history until it seems wrong.

    Starting with the more prominent:
    Civilization (Culture Group)

    About 4000 BCE

    Shang > China (Han Chinese)
    Indus > India (Indian/Harrapan)
    Egypt (Egyptian)

    About 3000 BCE

    Elam > Persia (Persian)

    About 2000 BCE

    Mycenae > Greece (Greek)
    Mesoanerican > Maya/Aztec (Mayan)
    Andean > Inca (Andean)

    About 1000 BCE

    Etruscan > Rome (Latin)


    ——

    Borderline possibilities?
    Uruk > Sumer (Ubaidian)
    Akkad > Babylon (Amorite)
    Kerma > Kush (Nubian)

    ——

    The the smaller scale but still civilized peoples could fill pages. City-states, empires that “only” lasted a few hundred years. Hittites, Phoenicians, Nok, Punt, Rus, Gojoseon, etc. City-States have been the way Civ has handled this category, are you thinking of bypassing it?


    Then you have the “barbarian” or protohistoric culture groups the civilizations encountered. There are probably at least 100 good candidates so you can use gameplay and geographical evenness criteria.

    Celts
    Britons
    Balts
    Parthians
    Uralics (or Magyars)
    Germans
    Mongols
    Turks
    Huns
    Manchu
    Jōmon
    Basques
    Bantus
    Koisan
    (Someone else can list the Western Hemisphere groups since I don’t know what ones would fit)

    These can be added or subtracted easily, so if you end up with too many you could combine Briton with Celt, and if you need more you could split Celt into Gaul Celt Briton and Iberian. Similarly German could add Norse and Lombard, split Turks could add Khazars etc.
     
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  16. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thanks !

    Yes, post-colonial Civilization are planned, but even medieval civilization could spawn earlier as the result of an Independence War, depending on the distance of the planned spawning location.

    Post-colonial civilizations could also spawn "normally" at the planned starting date (we could implement some variance here)

    I'll try to provide a framework allowing to change Civilizations names over time (or on spawn / after revolt, ...) which would allow an unlimited* pool to chose from (instead of being limited by the maximum of 63 "players" in a game), but I suppose it's easier, for a starting list, to keep the "classics" from the Civilization serie with a few post-colonial civilizations added, something like that to follow your initial proposal:

    China
    Egypt
    Greece
    India
    Persia
    Rome

    Japan
    England
    France
    Germany
    Spain
    Russia

    Argentina
    Australia
    U.S.A
    Brazil
    Canada
    Mexico

    One criteria for the selection would be based on gameplay, IE the location and start date, as the mod will play on TSL maps or the Terra map.

    About the "culture groups", there is no limitation in numbers*, and about "city states" we could give them some attributes allowing a "peak date" that could allow spawning a city for them on the map around that time as a temporary "barbarian" or "free" cities, instead of, as currently planned, representing more densly populated areas by "tribal villages" and "barbarian camps".

    Gameplay again, "affinities" between "culture groups" and "Civilizations", as well as their "peak dates" would allow to slow down settling in certain areas (to keep space for later-spawning civilizations) without having "hard" limitations.

    I'm still unsure about the possible gameplay mechanisms for Civilizations that would spawn early on another continents than the old world's.

    *Once a framework is defined, the limitation would be how much of them people here would want to define in XML files.
     
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  17. AJCB

    AJCB Chieftain

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    With your criteria in mind, I think your approach of having three waves is the best approach.

    That said, I'm not totally sure how to handle late-spawning civilizations. Gameplay serves to diverge from history, as actions can render later historical events untenable, especially if not every precursor nation exists (ie Brazil without Portugal). In other words, assuming nations can be eliminated via conquest or other means would leave potential future civs without an origin.

    This could be avoided by having later nations be tied more to geography than history, ie making the USA be a union of states with the culture groups of whoever managed to get to the east coast of North America, whether that was England or Egypt or even the natives? This would allow the world to still have nations come around at their historical times without pre-determined gameplay.

    Maybe the focus could be on:

    * Early civs, as outlined by you above. (Egypt, China etc)

    *Cultural groups all across the map, which can eventually found city-states, join civs, or conquer the city-dwellers.
    (Germans founding Goth cities, living under Roman rule, sacking Rome, founding a "new" civ under Charlemagne)

    *Independence wars and Revolutions creating new sovereign civs.
    (Oversea cities can found a new civ if they are strong enough)

    This way you would limit the amount of work you have. Once these systems are operational you could come back and add more deterministic elements to encourage specific outcomes?
     
  18. AJCB

    AJCB Chieftain

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    However you end up deciding to implement things, here's an updated list of cultural groups with the potential to join, be absorbed, or conquer civilizations. Instead of going for 100% historical accuracy or coverage, I'm focusing on making sure there is a good spread of geography to cover as much of the planet as possible without doubling up too much, and choosing a named group that is both sufficiently broad while still having distinctions in language, art and culture from their neighbors. This is why I recommend splitting Britons from Celts, because otherwise Celts would just be all over Europe! Similarly, I'm using the names that I think are most familiar to a modern audience, hence the name Celt instead of Hallstatt, even though the people of Hallstatt were probably the linguistic and cultural ancestors of the Celts.

    Time-wise I'm going for historical mention before the year 1000 BCE, the earlier the better. I'll bold the groups that fit the criteria to be full-fledged Civs from the start of the game, Rome getting a little slack because the I think we can all agree playing the Etruscans just don't have the draw of playing Rome!

    Again, I'm sticking to eastern hemisphere, someone with more expertise in American First Nation cultures could add them. Similarly, Melanesia and Polynesia surely have many cultures I am not familiar with.

    For Europe:

    Celts (Gauls, Celtiberians,)
    {Probably split the Celtiberians into their own group, Iberians, so that Iberia is covered}
    Britons (English, Welsh, Scots, Irish)
    Greeks (Mycenaeans)
    Romans (Etruscans)
    Sardinians (Nuragics, "Sea Peoples", Corsicans)
    Balts (Lithuanians, Latvians)
    Germans(Norse, Goths, Teutons, Lombards, Angles, Saxons, Vandals...)
    Uralics (Finns, Magyars, Saami, "Siberians")
    Scythians (Sarmatians)
    Slavs <-- Very large geographic sprawl later since they spread so far after the 6th century CE
    Probably good to split into:
    ~West Slavs for the Czech, Poles, Slovaks area
    ~East Slavs for the Western Russian region, and Ukraine if the Scythians are not already there
    ~South Slavs for the Balkans OR Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians if you want to have the earlier inhabitants, Bulgars if you want later

    Something like this group of 10 to 15 cultural groups with 1-3 early Civs.

    Is this the sort of groupings you are thinking will work? If so, I can write up a listing for West Asia and expand from there.
     
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  19. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thanks, and yes, that's what I'm looking for.

    If some of you want to format a list, here is how it could be presented (the values here as just for example, feel free to edit them):

    The general definition (the Civilization culture groups don't need to be defined here, they'll be based on the Civilization table)
    Code:
    <CultureGroups>
       <Row CultureType="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureName="LOC_CULTURE_CELTS_NAME" PeakStrength="75" StartDate="-1200" PeakDate="-450" EndDate="100" Agressivity="25" />
    </CultureGroups>
    
    "Agressivity" could be used to determine the ratio between "tribal village" and "barbarian camps" spawning, as well as the reaction (ie spawning barbarian units) to approaching civilization units

    The localization text:
    Code:
    <LocalizedText>
       <Replace Tag="LOC_CULTURE_CELTS_NAME" Text="Celts" Language="en_US" />
    </LocalizedText>
    
    The starting positions (the area in which "tribal village" and "barbarian camps" will spawn to diffuse that culture group)
    Code:
    <CultureGroupsStartingRegions>
       <Row CultureType="CULTURE_CELTS" StartingRegion="WEST_EUROPA" Probability="65"/>
       <Row CultureType="CULTURE_CELTS" StartingRegion="SOUTH_EUROPA" Probability="45"/>
    </CultureGroupsStartingRegions>
    
    "Probability" would be used to define the spawning rate.

    The specific base relation values
    Code:
    <CultureGroupsAffinities>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_ROME" Affinity="-15"/>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_ENGLAND" Affinity="55"/>
    </CultureGroupsAffinities>
    
    There is no need to provide relations values between all groups here, only the historically relevant relations or when, for gameplay reasons, we want to slow down a civilization expansion in some regions (for example a place where another Civilization will spawn later), the other will default at "0"

    There is already a list of Regions used for resource placement, it's the same table that will be used here, we can add more, it's just a matter of defining it (on all map used) like this
    Code:
    <Replace MapName="GiantEarth" Region="WEST_EUROPA" X="2" Y="61" Width="23" Height="12" />
    
     
  20. AJCB

    AJCB Chieftain

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    Do I have this correct as an example? I don't know the PeakStrength and Agressivity values, what range are you using? For Cultural Affinity, what does a negative number signify? Do I just put Culture groups of major Civs, or include potential concurrent tribal groups?


    Code:
    <CultureGroups>
      <Row CultureType="CULTURE_BALTS" CultureName="LOC_CULTURE_BALTS_NAME" PeakStrength="75" StartDate="-200" PeakDate="300" EndDate="1300" Agressivity="25" />
    </CultureGroups>
    Code:
    <LocalizedText>
      <Replace Tag="LOC_CULTURE_BALTS_NAME" Text="Balts" Language="en_US" />
    </LocalizedText>
    Code:
    <CultureGroupsStartingRegions>
      <Row CultureType="CULTURE_BALTS" StartingRegion="BALTIC_SEA" Probability="85"/>
       <Row CultureType="CULTURE_BALTS" StartingRegion="CENTRAL_EUROPA" Probability="25"/>
    </CultureGroupsStartingRegions>
    Code:
    <CultureGroupsAffinities>
      <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_GERMANS" Affinity="25"/>
      <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_GERMANY" Affinity="25"/>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_SLAVS" Affinity="-10"/>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_RUSSIA" Affinity="-50"/>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_LITHUANIA" Affinity="80"/>
       <Row CultureType1="CULTURE_CELTS" CultureType2="CULTURE_POLAND" Affinity="50"/>
    </CultureGroupsAffinities>
    In this example, I'm trying to model the Balts as being mostly in the Baltic Sea area, with the potential to pop up in Central Europe. Very high Affinity for Lithuania obviously (If Lithuania is included?), with high affinity for Poland and Germany since those nations occupy where medieval Balts once lived. I gave Slavs and Russia negative because they were nearby in order to keep Russia/Slavs from expanding too far West in the middle ages.
     
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