civIV Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (RFRE)

primordial stew said:
I still don't get how to create the map :/ I've stripped everything but the terrain out of a map, but am missing how to sucessfully edit it in worldbuilder. Seems like it should just be: make edits, then save, but the save file is just a header, no data.. Are we supposed to just add in everything with a text editor?
Thats really weird. How are you saving it? I've never had trouble with that before.
 
Maybe it's something to do with the XML being hosed? I'm going to keep sorting that out. It did actually start a game today. The tech tree was.. not as expected, but parts were working. Just 1 known XML error left, but there is some fatal problem at the moment, probobly a loop in the tech tree.. too many edits for 1 day! :crazyeye:
 
I am really lost following the technical details but amazed progress seems to be fast. Will the tech tree be very similar to the Civ3 version, or is there scope/need to go more in details (e.g. one tech per most emperor ;) )?
 
Anyone who's played the American Revolution mod (comes with civIV) can understand that it feels kind of wierd to play since there is no research to do. Everything is simply triggered by the game turn. But like Gunner said about artillery being a key part of civIV, so is research. That said, all I'm trying to do is copy the masterpiece, which is far easier than creating the original :D I'm sure there will be differences in the tech trees, but the concept is the same.

It looks like there will need to be a "Great Library" functioning bit of python so that the Romans can keep up to date ;) That is now on the to-do list, but it isn't needed for phase1.
 
does anyone know if there is a min/max turns for research like in Civ3? nonetheless the costs are probably different? it would definitely affect the player's research, so if anyone knows, fill us in!
 
Yeah, that is an issue too.. There are ways to modify the research cost, but I don't know if it can be done dynamically (ie a python function which sets beakers based on 12 * 1.05 (assume some growth) * current beaker production * .80 (target 80% research). Something like that..

The tech tree is still hosed... it is seeing all of the techs, but the dependencies are just wrong :mad:

I did add "<Uniquename>" for the legions today based on the wiki page. This was discussed earlier as being a good candidate for a python function, but this is the cheap way to do it. Now Roma may build "I Macedonia" instead of some Macedonian city raising it, or during Caesar's reign you may raise "III Augusta", but you'll also get "II Adiutrix Pia Fidelis" and "I Minerva" which obviously are not region or emperor based.

Hopefully there will be a day when we will finally get "I Flavia Theodosiana" which is one of the Comitatenses names. That will be most joyous!

All of the tech info from the civIII civilopedia.txt has been translated to civIV formatting using perl, so any typos will still be there!! Almost all of the existing techs+units have appropriate text now. Looks much better :)
 
1. "you have been defeated" is the 1st thing that shows up when loading my converted ROR map. I've googled this string, but didn't find anyone who listed a root cause. The odd things RFRE has are:
settlers not buildable till late techs
different named eras (era_chronicles, era_rise_of_rome, era_fall_of_rome)

I faintly recall reading how civIV checks victory at the beggining of every turn (including turn 0!!!), but the map has cities for some of the civs. It doesn't say the type of defeat (time, domination, space race, etc..).

2. how do dependencies in the tech tree work? I'm missing something very fundemental here :/


1 more question.. how can we validate the xml files outside of civIV? There is some reference schema listed in the file, but it doesn't exist as a file. I don't care about editing the file, vim does great at that, but the schema defines what it is expecting to see, and it would be nice to run some xml validator on the files. In some cases, civIV does point at the wrong xml file in the popup window phase of loading.
 
For the you have been defeated thing its tough to say what the problem is. Have you gone into the wbs file and made sure that the civilizations in it match up with the civilizations you've defined in xml?

It would be helpful if you just said all of the files you've modded so far.
 
Not counting the many files in the "text" dir of TAM.. ~85% of them. They're all related!

I'd be more than happy to understand how dependencies are created in the tech tree....... it's just not paying attention to my OR/AND requirements. For example, in civ4techinfos.xml:

tech_praetor AND requires tech_civil_engineering and tech_etruscan_heritage. But in the pedia, is comes up with only tech_etrucsan_heritage.

<OrPreReqs/>
<AndPreReqs>
<PrereqTech>TECH_CIVIL_ENGINEERING</PrereqTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_ETRUSCAN_HERITAGE</PrereqTech>
</AndPreReqs>

For tech_civil_engineering it's OR tech_etrucsan_heritage, but in the pedia it has tech_pre275bc.

How the hello does this work?? I just can't make any sense of how it works. I have found that putting tech_pre275bc at the end of file is a fatal error... I suppose I should play around in the ROR tech file. All it has (that I've noticed) is each tech ORs the previous tech. Looks very simple, but maybe it's some difference between warlords and civIV that it actaully works in Warlords??

The civIV implementation logic should be trivial.. we have to specify the prereqs, and the x,y location in the viewer, so all it needs to do is draw some arrors! But apparently there is more, or there is some un-caught XML syntax error. It is displaying all of the techs, it's just the dependencies that are completely wrong.
 
I'm thinking that Vassal states could be used to simulate nations with the status of "Friend and Ally of the Roman People."
 
Indeed, I think for later scenarios especially, such civs that aren't quite Roman provinces can be Vassals instead of civs that float either way, since those kinds of civs shouldn't be aggressors: Mauretania, Numidia, Noricum, Transalpine Gauls
 
Emperor Iaius I said:
I'm thinking that Vassal states could be used to simulate nations with the status of "Friend and Ally of the Roman People."

I agree that it is wholly appropriate, but I'm going to try to not require Warlords if it's reasonable to leave it out. The biggest reason at this point is the 18 (17 + barbs) civ limit. There are some working on 24 or 32 civ mod components, but for now it puts a damper on how minor civs can be done in the game since there just isn't room for them :cry:


The techinfos file had to be rebuilt from scratch in order to fix whatever issue was corrupting the dependencies. It's mostly complete out to soldier emperors. The "years/turn" (ie 1 turn/year for the first 125 turns, 2 years/turn for the next 125 turns, etc..) is now the "normal", and only, game speed setting. Most of the extraneous units (eg warrior, scout, etc..) have been purged.

Hopefully in a week there will be a reasonable phase1 available. The big challenges are in getting the map populated, and figuring out how to actually make the timeline stuff behave correclty.


1 open issue is what to do about religion. TAM comes with a bunch of them, but controlling happiness is central to parts of RFRE. For example using national goods as the only luxury resource, and the 3rd Century Crisis. Maybe the happy effect of all religious building except Christian get removed? That and eliminate all missionaries, and severely limit the spread factor of all but Christianity. Does that sound reasonable? The were many pages of discussions in TAM about how to handle religions. Maybe cities with Judiism (ie only Jerusalem) are made very unhappy about other religions, and the romans spread thier religion as they conquer, which will set the stage for the Macabian revolts :mischief: Something like that!
 
primordial stew said:
I agree that it is wholly appropriate, but I'm going to try to not require Warlords if it's reasonable to leave it out. The biggest reason at this point is the 18 (17 + barbs) civ limit. There are some working on 24 or 32 civ mod components, but for now it puts a damper on how minor civs can be done in the game since there just isn't room for them :cry:
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Vanilla has an 18 + barbs limit, while you can set the Warlords limit to whatever you'd like.
 
Ahh, found it.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184503
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=179317
To summarize, no more than 18 ever in vanilla, but in warlords it's a 1 line SDK change to set the number, but there are UI issues and memory concerns. Hmmmmmm.... I don't know how feasable 1 big RFRE is. Maybe it will end up in parts until the day when everyone has 2G of memory and Warlords. Anyway, this isn't a showstopper for phase1, so onward!


civIII RFRE used almost 30 civs, but some were overlapped, like Numidia became the Vandals, and Scythia was the Huns.


I'm working on the phase1 region of the map now, and adding all of the civilizations. Lots of redundancy :/

Does anyone have input to what a good list of Consular armies should be? The plan right now is to give Scipio/Caesar/Trajan/Belisarius free with the tech (they are the analog of the civIII armies). They won't be buildable, so once gone that is it. The replaceable unit will be the "Consular Legions". Only 1 is allowed at a time. Each time it is build it will get a new name, so this should correspond with notable consuls and in historical order.

Code:
<!-- The most notable by far was Marcus Atilius Regulus (died c. 250 BC), a general and consul (for the second time) in the ninth year of the First Punic War (256 BC). Regulus defeated the Salentini and captured Brundisium (now Brindisi) during his first term as consul in 267 BC.

He was one of the commanders in the Roman naval expedition that shattered the Carthaginian fleet at Cape Ecnomus, and landed an army on Carthaginian territory. The invaders were so successful that the other consul, Lucius Manlius Vulso Longus, was recalled to Rome, leaving Regulus behind to finish the war. -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Marcus Atilius Regulus</UniqueName>
				<!-- Gaius Terentius Varro was a Roman consul and commander. Along with his colleague, Lucius Aemilius Paullus, he commanded at the Battle of Cannae during the Second Punic War, in 216 BC, against the Carthaginian general Hannibal. The battle proved to be a decisive Roman defeat.  -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Gaius Terentius Varro</UniqueName>
				<!--  In 207 BC he was elected consul with Marcus Livius Salinator, and with his colleague he led the army that defeated the Carthaginians at the river Metaurus, killing their commander, Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal. -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Gaius Claudius Nero</UniqueName>
				<!-- 138 BC-78 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Cornelius_Sulla -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Lucius Cornelius Sulla</UniqueName>
				<!-- 115 BC - 53 BC  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Marcus Licinius Crassus</UniqueName>
				<!-- September 29, 106 BC - September 29, 48 BC)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey  -->
				<UniqueName>Armies of Pompey the Great</UniqueName>
 
Wow, just found this thread! I should have checked earlier. Well, I can't be much help on any coding, but I'll be more than happy to test out your preliminary versions.
For the armies, the easiest way would be to check out the consul's names and put it as "Consular army of BLANK"
 
Just giving some random idea :
Religion : You said there wasn't going to be many religions right? Well, I think here there is the possibility of improvement on that issue. The Romans had of course their polytheist religion with Jupiter and all that. The barbs to the north had their paganism religion. Cartage worshipped Baal. Their Greeks had their multiple and redundant gods. Since Alexander's conquests, this religion was in fact spread in Egypt, Turkey and the middle-east. I also think that the Persians had their own religion although I don't remember its name. If you add Judaism and Christianity, that makes 7 :) . Also, since most of the time there were "tensions" (low level civil war) between members of the state religion and those of the minority, I would say that cities can and should only have one religion at a time. When you want to spread your faith, it is forced conversion and unhappines.
Number of Civs : 18 is the way to go! At no point does Rome need to interact with more than 18 civs. Meaning you could use coding to make for example Cartago, after its defeat by Rome, come back as a civ that is called Italian allies. After its defeat, it can come back as the Hun, etc. I hope it is doable, as it would save processing power.
Type of soldiers : Don't keep it too simple! I want my ballistas and catapults to appear on the field! I don't want to take on the whole world with only Legios that are good against cities. Part of the fun of RFRE was that you needed an army composed of velites, ballistas and legios to actually wage your wars. Not just some creazy beef-up Legios army. Plus, we need catapults to do collateral damages to enemy garrisons.
Reserves? : With multiple revolutions, this means that there is no safe core in which you need to keep 1 praesidium per city. Either there is a need for a civic that allows the conscription of legions (as happenned many times during those troubles) at the cost of the economy, or we need to introduce the concept of strategic reserves. For example, you build a unit in Rome, click the reservist button, and it bocmes immobile with no support cost and no military value. However, you could reactivate it a while latter over 2-3 turns.

That's all that came to me during lunch. I have absolutly no idea if it is doable or even necessary and it will probably cause massive headache to P Stew if he likes it, but hey, everyone needs a little challenge :mischief: .
 
Religion wasn't mutex in the Roman's view. The Carthinagins could still worship Baal, so long as they worshiped the Roman gods as well. That was the key. Any religion that had claims to exclusivity in idol worship was then a problem. Temples were build all over, and lots of them, so maybe no happiness, but culture and gold? Temples did accumulate wealth and would be looted in desperate times.

I'm replicating the civIII units. So there is a ballista, but looks just like a catapult for now :/ Velites look just like skirmishers. Bellators don't benefit much from defense bonuses. From what I've read these were "wild men", looking to prove themselves, and so only had a small shield if any becasue attacking was what you were supposed to be doing.

The discrete siege engines will be essential. Consider Antonii's attack on Parthia. Had he actually protected his rear area (baggage train + siege engines) he may have been sucessful. But he didn't, and the Parthians destroyed them, so then stalemate since he couldn't storm the city, and finally peace.

The early legions will also be built with food. So raising legions will stifle local growth, but it maximizes thier build speed. I don't plan on making legions hard to raise, but there will be a cost :mischief:

As for reserves, that will be up to the player! Road movement *will* increase along with the expansion of the empire.

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The phase1 region of the map has all cities in place. Units are being added (eg tribus magnus/bellator/etc...) so that they can be added to the map. For whatever reason starting technologies are tied to the map (instead of in the civilizationinfos..), so now starting technologies are actually working (only the Romans will get etruscan_heritage). No more legions for Illyria!

Hispania is pretty sparse for now. I would like to see if Carthage will expand to here in thier free time.


For the 18 civ limit problem in civIV, 1 option is to just group all of the small ones into MINOR_CIV, and give it the minorciv=1 status (free to attack at any time, no state of war). This will make it far easier to take the rest of Italia and Magna Graecia :/

MINOR_CIV_GREEK = Magna Graecia, Thracia, Epirus, Pirates, Nabatae, Athanae, Armenia...
MINOR_CIV_BARB = Cispalinus Galia, Iberia, Cimbii, etc...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
graphics requests submitted:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4521269#post4521269
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171898&page=5
 
Minor stuff.. but what would people like as the loading screen? I dl'ed a demo which will convert whatever image format into .dds. DDS is the format of most of the civIV graphics. Unit graphics are very complex, but loading screens aren't :)

For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poussinscipio.jpg

The mod main screen is the top image from page 1 of the original RFRE.
 
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