civIV Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (RFRE)
- Thread starter primordial stew
- Start date
pinktilapia
Homeless
In due time, they will be. This is just a very early alpha, with only the direct surroundings of Rome put in place. The East if I recall right, is nearly empty.
primordial stew
Emperor
@rapiduser
Thanks! Hopefully not too many dls though. Still too much work to do!
@CaptainBeaver
> 11) Promotions : Legio can't get city assault? why not? ram and siege towers can get city assault even though they can't attack. Little bug here I think.
I thought city_raider would be a big promotion, but the legions did well enough without them.. Maybe walls need to go to 60%?
> Religion
How about each civ's religion is applied when a city is captured? The Romans had freedom of religion till Christianity, but people HAD to have the Roman religion. And as for temples, I don't think there should be a limit. This was polytheism at it's best, a temple for each god so long as you could afford to build it! So temples should be somewhat expensive, but as many as desired can be built. How does that sound?
As for everyone hating the other religions, that can be tuned. But there should be a conflict between mono, and polytheism types. This was the source of problems in Jerusalem. But was this so anywhere else?
There will be a revolt in Jerusalem for sure, but is that enough? Or do we need the People's Front of Judea, and the People's Popular Front of Judea too?
What have the Romans ever done for us?!?!
> Game is slow
Sure is. Something wrong in my python. Possibly related to enslaving firing 3 times (but only 1 log message
)
Just disable the python if you want by renaming the "/mods/rfre.r1/assets/phtyon" directory to anything other than "python". The python enables enslaving, historical events, and timer tech aquisition. But these aren't important in the early game.
> wonders
Those just need to go into the appropriate city of a missing civ.
> Peltastae Samniti
There are no HN units in civIV. So this will have to work differently. Barbs can be spawned so long as the city isn't Roman, but how to keep them from going after the city? Hopefully the 125% defense is enough to encourage easier targets, but when the AI is in attack mode, it attacks!
> Pyrrus
The battle typically goes well enough, but not always.
> Diplo
The only one to do anything with is Jugertha.
> Civics
Changes should be more subtle, the time period isn't very long.
Slavery followed by serfdom (with Constantine) are the 2 basic labor options. But slavery could be divided in 2, "plain old" slavery, and then latifundia. Latifundia while giving increased wealth, was considered bad for the country as a whole as the proper Romans were no longer "sturdy peasantry". I find it interesting that the Stratios is similar to the original legion in it was the farmers that both worked, and defended the land. They came full circle.
So how about:
slavery : +1 gold/mine, +1 unhappy, pop rush
latifundia : +3 gold/agriculture (farm, grove, orchard), +3 unhappy, pop rush, +15% gold
serfdom : +1 gold/farm, gold rush
Note: it's either gold, or population rush, no mixing is possible.
Will the player ever leave latifundia? One of the keys to the game needs to be that the national goods (ie Greek goods) are essential to keeping the population working, so care needs to be taken to limit happiness such that it drives the historical descision.
The barbs will be stuck with Tribalism for the whole game, and probobly migration as well.
@Drtad
This is basically the "phase 1" map. Let me explain the big issue here:
The full map has the fundemental issue of the civIV limit of 18 civs. It's a tiny mod to Warlords to get up to 32(?) civs. There are UI issues with so many civs though. I would like to recycle civ slots when possible. For example Epirus will be gone in the first 5 or so turns, but yet it's taking up 1 slot :/ 1 way.. is to just call them "Minor Civ" and have it represent Epirus, Cimbii, Pergamum, Nabetae, etc.. but there are issues here too.
I suppose the first step here is to figure out what the max # of civs will be by seeing which civs can share a slot (pretty sure slot sharing can be done in python). The whole list of civs is.. Rome, Carthage, Numida, Iberia, Gaul, Cisalpina Galia, Epirus, Magna Graecia (western Greek), Eastern Greek, Macedonia, Dacia, Illyria, Germanics, Britanics, Cimbri/Teutones/Ambroni (these 3 could be 1), Macedonia, Thracia, Pontus, Armenia, Selucoid, Persia, Nabatae, Aegyptus, Goths (is 1 Goth enough?), Hun, Bythia, Vandals, Piratae, Galatia, Aetolia, and maybe a few others. I've listed 30, so how to make that into just 18 considering who needs to be alive at what time?
Tribes repersented by Barbs: Roxolani, Iceni, Pictii, Franks, Normans
Examples:
Aetolia - no room on map!
Pirates - probobly just make them barbarian, but such that only Rome is likely to conquer thier city (high city defense)
ok, so now just 28:
Numidia -> Vandals (can we just call them Barbarians?)
Epirus -> Pergamum -> Armenia -> Goths
Cisalpina Galia -> Dacia
Iberia -> Persia/Sassandis
Magna Gracea -> Thracia -> Galatia -> Britanics
Carthage -> Bythia -> Nabatae
Eastern Greek -> Pontus
Settlers can't be built till the migration period of the game, so the plots would be left empty on the map. The new cities would by created wholey in python when the proceeding civ is destroyed. Just have 1 big, ordered list of the next civ to be created, or use specific replacements as listed above?
The advantage to all of this is the civs won't be conquered during some AI war. Another is that the game will play faster and take less memory (memory consumption is exponential with # of civs, as well as size of map, graphics loaded...). So it's not clear which approach works best overall.
Thanks! Hopefully not too many dls though. Still too much work to do!
@CaptainBeaver
> 11) Promotions : Legio can't get city assault? why not? ram and siege towers can get city assault even though they can't attack. Little bug here I think.
I thought city_raider would be a big promotion, but the legions did well enough without them.. Maybe walls need to go to 60%?
> Religion
How about each civ's religion is applied when a city is captured? The Romans had freedom of religion till Christianity, but people HAD to have the Roman religion. And as for temples, I don't think there should be a limit. This was polytheism at it's best, a temple for each god so long as you could afford to build it! So temples should be somewhat expensive, but as many as desired can be built. How does that sound?
As for everyone hating the other religions, that can be tuned. But there should be a conflict between mono, and polytheism types. This was the source of problems in Jerusalem. But was this so anywhere else?
There will be a revolt in Jerusalem for sure, but is that enough? Or do we need the People's Front of Judea, and the People's Popular Front of Judea too?
What have the Romans ever done for us?!?!
> Game is slow
Sure is. Something wrong in my python. Possibly related to enslaving firing 3 times (but only 1 log message
)Just disable the python if you want by renaming the "/mods/rfre.r1/assets/phtyon" directory to anything other than "python". The python enables enslaving, historical events, and timer tech aquisition. But these aren't important in the early game.
> wonders
Those just need to go into the appropriate city of a missing civ.
> Peltastae Samniti
There are no HN units in civIV. So this will have to work differently. Barbs can be spawned so long as the city isn't Roman, but how to keep them from going after the city? Hopefully the 125% defense is enough to encourage easier targets, but when the AI is in attack mode, it attacks!
> Pyrrus
The battle typically goes well enough, but not always.
> Diplo
The only one to do anything with is Jugertha.
> Civics
Changes should be more subtle, the time period isn't very long.
Slavery followed by serfdom (with Constantine) are the 2 basic labor options. But slavery could be divided in 2, "plain old" slavery, and then latifundia. Latifundia while giving increased wealth, was considered bad for the country as a whole as the proper Romans were no longer "sturdy peasantry". I find it interesting that the Stratios is similar to the original legion in it was the farmers that both worked, and defended the land. They came full circle.
So how about:
slavery : +1 gold/mine, +1 unhappy, pop rush
latifundia : +3 gold/agriculture (farm, grove, orchard), +3 unhappy, pop rush, +15% gold
serfdom : +1 gold/farm, gold rush
Note: it's either gold, or population rush, no mixing is possible.
Will the player ever leave latifundia? One of the keys to the game needs to be that the national goods (ie Greek goods) are essential to keeping the population working, so care needs to be taken to limit happiness such that it drives the historical descision.
The barbs will be stuck with Tribalism for the whole game, and probobly migration as well.
@Drtad
This is basically the "phase 1" map. Let me explain the big issue here:
The full map has the fundemental issue of the civIV limit of 18 civs. It's a tiny mod to Warlords to get up to 32(?) civs. There are UI issues with so many civs though. I would like to recycle civ slots when possible. For example Epirus will be gone in the first 5 or so turns, but yet it's taking up 1 slot :/ 1 way.. is to just call them "Minor Civ" and have it represent Epirus, Cimbii, Pergamum, Nabetae, etc.. but there are issues here too.
I suppose the first step here is to figure out what the max # of civs will be by seeing which civs can share a slot (pretty sure slot sharing can be done in python). The whole list of civs is.. Rome, Carthage, Numida, Iberia, Gaul, Cisalpina Galia, Epirus, Magna Graecia (western Greek), Eastern Greek, Macedonia, Dacia, Illyria, Germanics, Britanics, Cimbri/Teutones/Ambroni (these 3 could be 1), Macedonia, Thracia, Pontus, Armenia, Selucoid, Persia, Nabatae, Aegyptus, Goths (is 1 Goth enough?), Hun, Bythia, Vandals, Piratae, Galatia, Aetolia, and maybe a few others. I've listed 30, so how to make that into just 18 considering who needs to be alive at what time?
Tribes repersented by Barbs: Roxolani, Iceni, Pictii, Franks, Normans
Examples:
Aetolia - no room on map!
Pirates - probobly just make them barbarian, but such that only Rome is likely to conquer thier city (high city defense)
ok, so now just 28:
Numidia -> Vandals (can we just call them Barbarians?)
Epirus -> Pergamum -> Armenia -> Goths
Cisalpina Galia -> Dacia
Iberia -> Persia/Sassandis
Magna Gracea -> Thracia -> Galatia -> Britanics
Carthage -> Bythia -> Nabatae
Eastern Greek -> Pontus
Settlers can't be built till the migration period of the game, so the plots would be left empty on the map. The new cities would by created wholey in python when the proceeding civ is destroyed. Just have 1 big, ordered list of the next civ to be created, or use specific replacements as listed above?
The advantage to all of this is the civs won't be conquered during some AI war. Another is that the game will play faster and take less memory (memory consumption is exponential with # of civs, as well as size of map, graphics loaded...). So it's not clear which approach works best overall.
primordial stew
Emperor
Legal is revised as follows:
barbarians:
tribal law (no change)
civilized nations:
ius civile (civil law) - low_upkeep
praetor (praetoric law) - high_upkeep, -25% dist, -50% # of cities, available with Praetor
forum (aka classical Roman law) - medium_upkeep, -25% disk, -50% # of cities, available with ?
corpus juris civilis ("body of civil law") - low_upkeep, -12% dist, -25% # of cities, available with Justinian
legal has 0 turns of anarchy.
Labor is changed as follows:
barbarian:
tribalism (no change)
migration (no change)
civilized nations:
slavery - +1g/mine, +1h/workshop
latifundia (rename tech_slavery to tech_latifundia) - slavery plus: +2g/farm, +2g/orchard, +2g/plantation, -2 happy in 5 largest cities
serfdom - +1f/farm, +1 happy
Removed the latifundia building. Changed slave_market to cost only 10h. Since a civic can't give free specialists, the slave_market will have to be built in order to get the 2 free citizen production bonus.
barbarians:
tribal law (no change)
civilized nations:
ius civile (civil law) - low_upkeep
praetor (praetoric law) - high_upkeep, -25% dist, -50% # of cities, available with Praetor
forum (aka classical Roman law) - medium_upkeep, -25% disk, -50% # of cities, available with ?
corpus juris civilis ("body of civil law") - low_upkeep, -12% dist, -25% # of cities, available with Justinian
legal has 0 turns of anarchy.
Labor is changed as follows:
barbarian:
tribalism (no change)
migration (no change)
civilized nations:
slavery - +1g/mine, +1h/workshop
latifundia (rename tech_slavery to tech_latifundia) - slavery plus: +2g/farm, +2g/orchard, +2g/plantation, -2 happy in 5 largest cities
serfdom - +1f/farm, +1 happy
Removed the latifundia building. Changed slave_market to cost only 10h. Since a civic can't give free specialists, the slave_market will have to be built in order to get the 2 free citizen production bonus.
primordial stew
Emperor
Army:
ballista -> leadership + tactics (+25% vs elephants) -> celtic recruitment -> greek recruitment -> professional army
imperial army -> emperor's bodygaurd -> asian recruitment
onager
heavy cavalry
mercenary army -> feodatori recruitment
mobile reserves -> intelligence service -> armored cavalry -> farmer soldiers
Naval:
land tactics at sea
profesional navy
greek fire ships
Labor:
gladiators (amphitheater) -> slave estates (enables latifundia civic)
serfdom (serfdom civic)
Urban:
region mapping (+1 trade route)
city planning (lower building costs?) -> hydro engineering (+2 health, +1 culture, enables aquaduct & fountain)
city guard (lower maintinence?)
commerce(??) (more commerce, but more disease)
grand architecture (colloseum, bath house)
new capital (can build capital) -> Theodisian Walls (can build 200% walls for Constantinople)
greek fire defenses (+15% city defense "pallisades")
Legal:
regional administration (praetor civic)
lex agraria
Roman Law (forum civic)
constitio antonii
diocices
jules civile (jules civil civic)
Religion:
polytheism
emperor worship
christian persecution -> christianity
Each type will be a parallel track. The synch point is the government. Repbulic will be divided in 2 spllit near the current Marius. Government will be forced in python. Research will be set at -999%, so ~1 beaker/turn. Each tech will take 12 turns (or so, depending on how many techs there are) on average. Earlier techs will probobly be shorter, and later techs longer. Maybe all techs in the same time frame cost the same?
>>> Please weigh in on this! <<<
So what this really does is it to spead the techs out more (no more super-techs, like Conversion to Constantine). It trades off telling the story of the rise and fall of Rome via the tech tree, for more of a micro-management approach. The old tech pedia entries will have to be re-organized and moved over to the timer tree so that the in-game historical reference can be maintained.
ballista -> leadership + tactics (+25% vs elephants) -> celtic recruitment -> greek recruitment -> professional army
imperial army -> emperor's bodygaurd -> asian recruitment
onager
heavy cavalry
mercenary army -> feodatori recruitment
mobile reserves -> intelligence service -> armored cavalry -> farmer soldiers
Naval:
land tactics at sea
profesional navy
greek fire ships
Labor:
gladiators (amphitheater) -> slave estates (enables latifundia civic)
serfdom (serfdom civic)
Urban:
region mapping (+1 trade route)
city planning (lower building costs?) -> hydro engineering (+2 health, +1 culture, enables aquaduct & fountain)
city guard (lower maintinence?)
commerce(??) (more commerce, but more disease)
grand architecture (colloseum, bath house)
new capital (can build capital) -> Theodisian Walls (can build 200% walls for Constantinople)
greek fire defenses (+15% city defense "pallisades")
Legal:
regional administration (praetor civic)
lex agraria
Roman Law (forum civic)
constitio antonii
diocices
jules civile (jules civil civic)
Religion:
polytheism
emperor worship
christian persecution -> christianity
Each type will be a parallel track. The synch point is the government. Repbulic will be divided in 2 spllit near the current Marius. Government will be forced in python. Research will be set at -999%, so ~1 beaker/turn. Each tech will take 12 turns (or so, depending on how many techs there are) on average. Earlier techs will probobly be shorter, and later techs longer. Maybe all techs in the same time frame cost the same?
>>> Please weigh in on this! <<<
So what this really does is it to spead the techs out more (no more super-techs, like Conversion to Constantine). It trades off telling the story of the rise and fall of Rome via the tech tree, for more of a micro-management approach. The old tech pedia entries will have to be re-organized and moved over to the timer tree so that the in-game historical reference can be maintained.
captain beaver
Civ 3 addict
This looks fine with me. Will there be any cross requesite such as having Imperial army before Roman Law? It would probably make sense to have at least some of them to make the development in every aspect more or less even.
Some of my thoughts :
1) Army
Good has it is but the mercenary techs (celtic, greek, asian) should need prerequisite so they won't be researched too early, but allow no techs, meaning they are dead-ends. This is in case I decide to conquer Greece before Gaul. Of course, if you prefer to make us tend toward the historical approach, this is a non-issue as I will not conquer Greece before Gaul if I know that I can't get hoplites before I research all the appropriate techs. Beside, mercenary is more of an optional way of doing warfare, so it may be more of a costs/benefit decision (I conquer Gaul behind schedule and have only 14 turns to raise mercenaries before they go obsolete and need to research the tech in 12 turn).
2) Navy
Good, nothing to add
3)Labor
Good
4)Urban
I see a lot of potential here, but since this is still alpha version, it might be best to keep it simple and bring the grandiose scheme later on.
5)Legal
Good, very straight forward
6)Religious
maybe a tech between polytheism and emperor worship would be good as there is a lot of time in between (from 275BC to 27BC = no emperor). Something along the line of organised cult could be an intermediate.
Some of my thoughts :
1) Army
Good has it is but the mercenary techs (celtic, greek, asian) should need prerequisite so they won't be researched too early, but allow no techs, meaning they are dead-ends. This is in case I decide to conquer Greece before Gaul. Of course, if you prefer to make us tend toward the historical approach, this is a non-issue as I will not conquer Greece before Gaul if I know that I can't get hoplites before I research all the appropriate techs. Beside, mercenary is more of an optional way of doing warfare, so it may be more of a costs/benefit decision (I conquer Gaul behind schedule and have only 14 turns to raise mercenaries before they go obsolete and need to research the tech in 12 turn).
2) Navy
Good, nothing to add
3)Labor
Good
4)Urban
I see a lot of potential here, but since this is still alpha version, it might be best to keep it simple and bring the grandiose scheme later on.
5)Legal
Good, very straight forward
6)Religious
maybe a tech between polytheism and emperor worship would be good as there is a lot of time in between (from 275BC to 27BC = no emperor). Something along the line of organised cult could be an intermediate.
captain beaver
Civ 3 addict
On another subject, wouldn't it be better to move this to the modpacks section? As it is, I don't think there is a lot of person who know there is an alpha version of RFRE and as such this thread quite often disappears from the first page of the discussion thread. Maybe by placing a new thread there there would be more testers, more potential coders/unit artists who would want to help. It is just that I'm concerned with the overall lack of post/discussion/testing (and I must say I can't preach by example as I have very little time for civ 4 these days du to heavy workload). I base myself on the civ 3 RFRE thread so I may be wrong here.
pinktilapia
Homeless
The first gestation period of RFRE was a quiet (and depressive) one. I barely managed to fetch a alpha-tester, and getting feedback was such a pain. The release of the beta in the completed modpack forum changed everything 
. I will try to help/comment once I am out of my current job, but that bring me to January.
. I will try to help/comment once I am out of my current job, but that bring me to January.primordial stew
Emperor
> feedback
But once it started it never stopped
> mercenaries techs
Like in civIII, the mercenary will require a castra, which requires the appropriate national resource, so researching celtic troops won't help till the land is conquered. Mercenary types are free, but have limited numbers allowed (eg 4 hoplites, 7 celts or something) to limit free unit spam. Let me explain free.. in civIV there are non-military units, and then military units. The free number of each can be modified by govt, and civics. So those "free mercenaries" are really just considered non-combat units, but if too many non-combats units (slaves count here) are accumulated, it will add cost.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but legions cost 1 extra gpt (Praetorians get 3gpt). If there are too many combat units then they will end up costing even more! This makes the auxiliaries even more desirable, so a player suffering with a weak economy may go for them earlier. This is what is desired at least.
> move to modpacks
Not quite yet. I was expecting more involvement, but at this point I still need to get a few things like the python worked out so the game isn't so painful to play.
> strategic freedom vs historical conquest
A great topic indeed! The biggest impact is really to the 18 civ limit. I believe... a civ can be replaced with another in python. But that requires civs be destroyed, so 1/2 conquering Gaul instead of eliminating Macedonia and the Eastern Greeks is a huge difference to the game. The only robust solution is to go to Warlords with the 32civ dll. This way (almost) everyone can exist at once. Even with 32 I'd still like to do such things like replace the Persians with the Sassanids.
I'm going to work on this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4679257#post4679257
If all goes well the only difference in the files will be the map. Vanilla will still be just the area around Rome, but Warlords will have all civs present. The files will be packaged as a Warlords mod, but come with a script to create the vanilla version. Or something like that at least...
I still don't know if vassals is an accurate way to portray the aquisition of Bythia, Pergamum, and Nabatae. It may work great though for when there are the Eastern and Western Roman Empires.
> religious
Maybe something somewhat generic like "grand temples" (allows Panthenon to be built)? They did build a lot of temples.
> urban
Lots of potential, but certainly not a clear picture of how to present it. The 1st tech should be renamed from "region mapping" to "bridge building". "Roman roads" could be another, or is that better under military?
"Travel/sightseeing" was a popular activity during the Pax Romana.
But once it started it never stopped
> mercenaries techs
Like in civIII, the mercenary will require a castra, which requires the appropriate national resource, so researching celtic troops won't help till the land is conquered. Mercenary types are free, but have limited numbers allowed (eg 4 hoplites, 7 celts or something) to limit free unit spam. Let me explain free.. in civIV there are non-military units, and then military units. The free number of each can be modified by govt, and civics. So those "free mercenaries" are really just considered non-combat units, but if too many non-combats units (slaves count here) are accumulated, it will add cost.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but legions cost 1 extra gpt (Praetorians get 3gpt). If there are too many combat units then they will end up costing even more! This makes the auxiliaries even more desirable, so a player suffering with a weak economy may go for them earlier. This is what is desired at least.
> move to modpacks
Not quite yet. I was expecting more involvement, but at this point I still need to get a few things like the python worked out so the game isn't so painful to play.
> strategic freedom vs historical conquest
A great topic indeed! The biggest impact is really to the 18 civ limit. I believe... a civ can be replaced with another in python. But that requires civs be destroyed, so 1/2 conquering Gaul instead of eliminating Macedonia and the Eastern Greeks is a huge difference to the game. The only robust solution is to go to Warlords with the 32civ dll. This way (almost) everyone can exist at once. Even with 32 I'd still like to do such things like replace the Persians with the Sassanids.
I'm going to work on this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4679257#post4679257
If all goes well the only difference in the files will be the map. Vanilla will still be just the area around Rome, but Warlords will have all civs present. The files will be packaged as a Warlords mod, but come with a script to create the vanilla version. Or something like that at least...
I still don't know if vassals is an accurate way to portray the aquisition of Bythia, Pergamum, and Nabatae. It may work great though for when there are the Eastern and Western Roman Empires.
> religious
Maybe something somewhat generic like "grand temples" (allows Panthenon to be built)? They did build a lot of temples.
> urban
Lots of potential, but certainly not a clear picture of how to present it. The 1st tech should be renamed from "region mapping" to "bridge building". "Roman roads" could be another, or is that better under military?
"Travel/sightseeing" was a popular activity during the Pax Romana.
primordial stew
Emperor
Just delete/rename mods/rfre/assets/python/cvGameUtils.py
I hacked the version from the AmRev mod, but apparently did it wrong.
I hacked the version from the AmRev mod, but apparently did it wrong.
pinktilapia
Homeless
If we delete this cvGameUtils.py, the lag when moving an unit will be gone? What was that file doing anyway?
primordial stew
Emperor
Yes! Score doesn't matter, so I copied the bit from the AmRev mod which just gives a score of 0 all the time. Apparently there is more to it though :/
I'll upload a patch, hopefully today. It will have the updated legal and labor civics, and some misc changes.
Here is the patch:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/1/rfre.r1.p1.zip (250 KB)
I'll upload a patch, hopefully today. It will have the updated legal and labor civics, and some misc changes.
Here is the patch:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/1/rfre.r1.p1.zip (250 KB)
Spoiler :
blitzkrieg80
ðrymes ðēoden
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2004
- Messages
- 707
Wow, I must say that I am very impressed by all of the hard work you guys are doing / brainstorming on this... Unfortunately I don't have the time to help currently, but this project is very exciting stuff every time I visit to check up on the progress 
Seriously guys, this is more promising than anything to date for Civ4, including Civ4 itself 
Seriously guys, this is more promising than anything to date for Civ4, including Civ4 itself
pinktilapia
Homeless
I am getting used to Civ4 - start to really love it actually. Thanks to Rye's mod mostly. What I appreciate the most is the fact I can go through a game in 10 hours, rather than hundreds with Civ3
To stop spamming the thread, I think one way we could progress is to make a list of what need to be done/debated/coded. We can then either split this among those willing to help, and have a more organized discussion on the thread. Civics have been quite drafted by P. Stew already. I think I will try to get back with feedback soon, now thta I understand better how civics work
To stop spamming the thread, I think one way we could progress is to make a list of what need to be done/debated/coded. We can then either split this among those willing to help, and have a more organized discussion on the thread. Civics have been quite drafted by P. Stew already. I think I will try to get back with feedback soon, now thta I understand better how civics work
primordial stew
Emperor
1 issue is the number of governments needed. republic/civil war/triumvirate/principate/absolute principate/christian principate + the AI govts, will make for quite a messy screen! Note sure if there is anything to do about this except get rid of the last 2. It'll still be a long list, but that is less important than having a good representation.
I've added parts of the "random events" mod in. So now Petra will get destroyed when it was. I would like to add disease/plague as an actual random event. There would be influence from population, number of trade routes, and especially a harbor.
Pompeii is too small to be a city in the game, but I'll probably make a popup for it. What other natural disasters should be added??
2 salt (not just sugar renamed as salt) resources have been added in Sicily. Hopefully this will make Carthage actually try to fight here instead of just sending troops into Italy all the time.. Salt gives +1 health and lots of $. If the AI is worth it's weight in salt, it'll try to take Sicily
A few barley resources have been added around the map as well. Maybe these will be useful somehow with gladiators (in addition to the local food bonus)?
I've added parts of the "random events" mod in. So now Petra will get destroyed when it was. I would like to add disease/plague as an actual random event. There would be influence from population, number of trade routes, and especially a harbor.
Pompeii is too small to be a city in the game, but I'll probably make a popup for it. What other natural disasters should be added??
2 salt (not just sugar renamed as salt) resources have been added in Sicily. Hopefully this will make Carthage actually try to fight here instead of just sending troops into Italy all the time.. Salt gives +1 health and lots of $. If the AI is worth it's weight in salt, it'll try to take Sicily
A few barley resources have been added around the map as well. Maybe these will be useful somehow with gladiators (in addition to the local food bonus)?
pinktilapia
Homeless
Can you post the latest files somewhere? Or should I go for the patch you posted 2 weeks ago? I will put some time into this, I am hooked with CIV again 
primordial stew
Emperor
The 1st (only) patch will work fine. This other stuff is pretty minor, but is needed at some point.
I'll play the 1st Punic War a few times and see if the salt does it. Probably Carthage needs more production/cheaper units.
I'll play the 1st Punic War a few times and see if the salt does it. Probably Carthage needs more production/cheaper units.
Fiend777Fits
Social Parasite
hey stew. i don't have a problem with extending the date on the scenario, but instead of only making the romans playable i wanted at least 19 of the mediterranean nations to be as well. i'm not really looking to reproduce history, but RFRE has always been genius. i won't deny that. besides my scenario isn't even started yet and i know nothing about editing the sdk code, so i really don't know how much help i would be (other than a researcher or idea-guy). i know the name and location of a lot of the cities in that area back then, in case you wanted to double check your map.
primordial stew
Emperor
ok, that's not going to work out then 
Most things here are tailored to the Roman pt of view, but some things will certainly be common, if only in theory.
The map is always a good topic. The one I'm using was modified from the Rise of Rome mod. It covers the area, but it's not big enough to fit even all the eventful cities. For example Corinth didn't fit.
One good topic to think about is how religion should be handled during this period. My understanding is that each culture basically had it's own (Rome = Romanism, Carthage = Baal worship, Celts/Germanics = Druidism, Persians = Zoroastrianism, etc...), but there there was also Judaism, which wasn't overly popular, but did have small followings in many cities (even Roma) that transcended national boundaries. After the Roman's converted to Christianity, "Romanism" + Greek religions were gone. Baal worship was effectively gone when Carthage was wiped out. Druidism continued for quite some time as Christianity tried to supplant it, but that is well after the time frame.
So to me there appear to be 2 types. The first only expands with conquest/settlement (Rome, Carthage, Druidism, Greek, Zoroastrianism, Egyptian polytheism), and the 2nd type (Judaism, Christianity) spread freely on their own. In the game this translates into the 2nd type having a non-zero spread factor, and the 1st type will have 0 spread factor, but python code will need to be added to so that it will spread on conquest/settlement.
But in the more abstract view, the 1st type could just be lumped into "pagansim". The obvious issue in the base game is pagan temples, etc can't be built, but that is easy to change. It all depends on the level of detail one wants to put in.
Most things here are tailored to the Roman pt of view, but some things will certainly be common, if only in theory.The map is always a good topic. The one I'm using was modified from the Rise of Rome mod. It covers the area, but it's not big enough to fit even all the eventful cities. For example Corinth didn't fit.
One good topic to think about is how religion should be handled during this period. My understanding is that each culture basically had it's own (Rome = Romanism, Carthage = Baal worship, Celts/Germanics = Druidism, Persians = Zoroastrianism, etc...), but there there was also Judaism, which wasn't overly popular, but did have small followings in many cities (even Roma) that transcended national boundaries. After the Roman's converted to Christianity, "Romanism" + Greek religions were gone. Baal worship was effectively gone when Carthage was wiped out. Druidism continued for quite some time as Christianity tried to supplant it, but that is well after the time frame.
So to me there appear to be 2 types. The first only expands with conquest/settlement (Rome, Carthage, Druidism, Greek, Zoroastrianism, Egyptian polytheism), and the 2nd type (Judaism, Christianity) spread freely on their own. In the game this translates into the 2nd type having a non-zero spread factor, and the 1st type will have 0 spread factor, but python code will need to be added to so that it will spread on conquest/settlement.
But in the more abstract view, the 1st type could just be lumped into "pagansim". The obvious issue in the base game is pagan temples, etc can't be built, but that is easy to change. It all depends on the level of detail one wants to put in.
Fiend777Fits
Social Parasite
I wouldn't recommend lumping the pagan religions into one lump religion. This would kinda dull the historical feeling of the time period. Monotheism or the belief in one god (Judaism and Christianity) really were the odd men out. So to separate them among so diverse a group of polytheisms all lumped into one seems kinda unfair. If anything you should diversify even more. As citing the Germanic tribes to druidism is probably inaccurate. When was Mohammed born? Not sure myself. Might wanna look into Islam as a possibility in the arabian peninsula.
Don't agree on your zero-spread factor either. The helenized (classical greek) religions highly influenced the Romans well before they conquered them. In fact many of the traditional Roman gods are mirror images of their greek counterparts. Mars = Aries. Venus = Aphrodite. Neptune = Poseidon. Jupiter = Zeus. Mercury = Hermes. But Roman polytheistic beliefs also had many of their own and incorporated from a broad range of existing beliefs to create their belief structure. The Mediterranean really was a melting pot of beliefs, so I think the existing religion model should do just fine.
Also, Persians are not in the picture anymore by 270 b.c. Alexander the Great wiped them out 40 - 50 years before. Currently the Seleucid Greeks (a nation headed by the descendants of one Alexander's generals) occupy this territory, along with an assortment of other break-away nations. The Seleucid Greeks might have this territory split somewhere in modern Iran, all the way to eastern India, with another general of Alexander's at this time.
By the way, my maps of the ancient mediterranean are bit more extensive than the bare-bones of Rise Of Rome
Don't agree on your zero-spread factor either. The helenized (classical greek) religions highly influenced the Romans well before they conquered them. In fact many of the traditional Roman gods are mirror images of their greek counterparts. Mars = Aries. Venus = Aphrodite. Neptune = Poseidon. Jupiter = Zeus. Mercury = Hermes. But Roman polytheistic beliefs also had many of their own and incorporated from a broad range of existing beliefs to create their belief structure. The Mediterranean really was a melting pot of beliefs, so I think the existing religion model should do just fine.
Also, Persians are not in the picture anymore by 270 b.c. Alexander the Great wiped them out 40 - 50 years before. Currently the Seleucid Greeks (a nation headed by the descendants of one Alexander's generals) occupy this territory, along with an assortment of other break-away nations. The Seleucid Greeks might have this territory split somewhere in modern Iran, all the way to eastern India, with another general of Alexander's at this time.
By the way, my maps of the ancient mediterranean are bit more extensive than the bare-bones of Rise Of Rome
Similar threads
