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CivIV:Warlords - Ragnar Lodbrok

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by hest, Jul 22, 2006.

  1. Willowmound

    Willowmound Wordbug

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    No, no depictions with horns. And of course they aren't fictional, their descendants are having this conversation with you!
     
  2. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Which culture is the descendants? The Danish? The Swedes? The Finns?Any Nordic peoples?

    I think at this point the gene pool has been a bit diluted by many different lines as there seem to be a number of differing cultures that claim some line of descendance from what we refer to today as the "Vikings."

    I would think an accurate view would have today's people as an amalgam of various cultures, including the Britons, the Gauls and even the Celts, in addition to the traditional view of the the Nordic races having dropped down the tree limb from the Vikings.

    AND there is some definite and accepted proof (by some!) that horned helmets were part of the mythology of the peoples that lived in the areas of the world that we are referencing. It is not only the Yanks that have the notion that the Viking wore helmets. Last time I checked, the Germans had forwarded the notion long before America became a unified culture or country.

    Just sayin.
     
  3. Columbkille

    Columbkille Chieftain

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    What is the proof that is accepted by some?
     
  4. Willowmound

    Willowmound Wordbug

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    The Scandinavians. They include Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Finland isn't Scandinavian, nor were they Viking. There is no great mystery here. We Scandinavians know who we are.

    There are no measurable Briton or Celtic genes in the Scandinavian pool. There are of course plenty measurable Scandinavian genetic material in the current population on the British Isles.

    I have seen no such proof. And I have read pretty much all the surviving texsts, written down in the 12th century just as this mythology was disappearing.

    The myth about Vikings and horns is widespread, yes you are right. :viking:
     
  5. Captain2

    Captain2 ಠ_ృ

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    vikings having horns on their helmets make no tactical sense, just think of it, your charging the enemy and loose your helmet on a tree limb thanks to the damn horn

    but you also have to remember, vikings having horns are comming from the same people who thought dragons existed because they found dinosaur bones
     
  6. darkedone02

    darkedone02 The Suggestor

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    HORNED HELMETS FOR THE WAY!!! also the one with cyrus wearing cigers on his head... at least he is not a pothead!
     
  7. Columbkille

    Columbkille Chieftain

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    He sure acts like one in all my games. :)
     
  8. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Marvel Comic books.

    Defender Series. No. 1 through 25.



    JUST KIDDING>



    Seriously though. Horned helmets were some part of NORSE mythology, according to some historians, cultural anthropologists and sociologists.

    "The latter-day mythos created by national romantic ideas blended the Viking Age with glimpses of the Nordic Bronze Age some 2,000 years earlier, for which actual horned helmets, probably for ceremonial purposes, are attested both in petroglyphs and by actual finds (See Bohuslän [2]). "

    There are actual petroglyphs in the Bohuslan area that depict religious ceremonies with horned helmets. They are rare certainly not the majority, but they do exist. I have seen replicas of the petroglyphs, but I do not know where a link exists to them For better and worse, not everything is available on the Web!

    This is the best example I could find short notice on the WWW.



    (from Reid, 1976)

    This petroglyph was found in the region we know today as Denmark. Some people argue it is of Celtic origin. Others argue it is from Norse/Danish origin.

    From:

    These helmets were apparently ceremonial offerings. They
    were buried at Vikso, Denmark during either the Late
    Bronze Age or the Early Iron Age. Reid (16) suggests
    these helmets were imports from Italy or the Alpine
    regions rather than of native manufacture. Curtis (6)
    notes that horned helmets (or the horned heads of gods?)
    are portrayed on some Danish bronze razors and Swedish
    rock carvings. Shetelig and Falk (17) suggest that the
    crude artwork on the razors and the stones was strongly
    influenced by the Celts. Magnusson (13) presents a
    figurine (figure 2) which was found at Grevens Vaeng in
    Zealand. He suggests such horned helmets were ceremonial
    in nature, and that the horns were used as symbols of the
    virility of the bull.



    Now remember, I did not cliam this was actually the case, only that SOME PEOPLE consider there to be actual evidence of horned helmets being used in myhtology and holding some type of religious significance. I did not say these people are correct, only that they hold such views.


    Figure 6. A portion of a metal-
    worker's die from Oland, Sweden
    (c.450--500 a.d.). (from Graham-
    Campbell, 1980)



    Figure 8. Viking Age amulet from an
    Uppland, Sweden find. (from Graham-
    Campbell, 1980)




    There are many other examples. Some people claim they are Gaulic or purely Celtic, while others claim they are Nordic.
     
  9. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Well the thing is, it is widely accepted that the Celts and the Gauls actually had horned helmets. They have even found artifacts of actual horned helmets, but they are not neccessarily Danish.

    Now what they were really used for is unknown. Perhaps religious ceremonies, or perhaps just for drinking parties. We don't know.

    But they did exist. There is real and tangible forensic evidence that actual horned helmets existed.

    And, like it or not, the Viking leader in Warlords appears that he will indeed be wearing a helmet with horns.


    Just sayin.
     
  10. andrewlt

    andrewlt Prince

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    The Viking tactic is a shield wall in close formation, kinda like how the Roman legions did their formation. Horned helmets would've been useless.

    They may have ceremonial decorations on their helmets for certain ceremonies but they don't necessarily need to be horns. Somebody probably just mistook them for horns because of their ferocity in battle.
     
  11. Fjolle

    Fjolle Chieftain

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    Bah, I am a descendant (sp?) of Harold Bluetooth, and i wouldnt be happy if the vikings didnt have horned helmets.

    And drkodos. Even though the gene pool is mixed there were still vikings. Theres nothing fictional about them, and they are as real as Christopher Columbus and Leonardo davinci... If you knew just a tiny bit about norse mythology then you would know that Odin and Thor are their gods and Valhalla is the place where the warriors go when they are dead.
     
  12. Magnon I

    Magnon I Chieftain

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    The horns on the helmet don´t bother me as much as using a mythical leader when there are many historically proven candidates deserving such as Haraldur Hárfagri who united Norway into one kingdom
     
  13. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    What is more weird to me is not the lack of historical accuracy in the Civ 4 artwork, but that this particular norse nation has the option of reaserching Monarch, machinary etc. and FUTURE TECH!!!! Or is that graphic at the top some other (new?) tech that just looks similar?
     
  14. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Sir: I never thought they were fictional. I was merely using a phrase to make a larger point. However, the internet is not a good place to make nuances or parsed arguments, so I apologize for the apparent misunderstanding.

    I realize (and did so long before I started posting here) that there were Vikings and who Odin and Thor are.

    My statement was aimed at the notion that someone posited that Ragnor was not a historic figure and I merely meant that if HE was not a real character to begin with THEN misrepresenting him was not that aggregious. It is a nuanced point. See: If someone is not real, then misrepresenting them is not wrong, sinc ethey did not exist anyway.


    And I still stand by by statements that Horned Helmets MAY HAVE BEEN a part of Norse mythology and that SOME HISTORIANS feel there is evidence to substantiate this.

    Fair enough?
     
  15. Willowmound

    Willowmound Wordbug

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    Some nice research work there, drkodos. :)

    Yes, I know about the Bronze Age helmets. They predate the Viking Age by at least 400 years, so while they don't say anything about horns in Viking mythology, they do suggest horns could have been part of the (same) mythology several centuries earlier.

    These guys I know very well:

    The 'horns' on these (and many simillar) figures are most commonly believed to be the ravens Hugin and Munin, and the figure itself Odin (Odin's ravens would every day fly all over the world, then return at night and tell their owner all that was happening). Now, I've personally never felt convinced these figures actually do represent Odin; Odin was one-eyed, whereas these figures all seem to have two good eyes. But I don't think those things on his head are horns either :)

    So I'm still not convinced horned helmets formed a part of Viking mythology (properly Norse or Teutonic mythology), but I'm not ruling anything out categorically.
     
  16. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    Superb, now if he can just research "match making" he'll be all set :)
     
  17. anglosaxon

    anglosaxon Monarch

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    DrKodos.

    England's population, language and culture is far more Viking-influenced than you realise.

    The English language itself comes from a fusion of Old-English (Late-Saxon) and early Danish. The northern English accent comes form the Danes who settled in the Danelaw area of north and east England. There are a few Latin words borrowed in it for sure, but the day-to-day language that I am writing now is half-Viking (Take the word 'half' for example).

    Now, lets take something so basic as the days of the week. 'Thursday', why is it called 'Thursday'? THOR'S-DAY, day of Thor. 'Friday'. FREY-DAY, day of Frey. 'Wednesday'. WODEN'S-DAY, from Woden, exactly the same God as Odin, just that the Dutch, Germans and English spelt 'Odin' differently from the Scandinavians. The fact that the old Gods' names have survived the onslaught of Christianity 1300 years after it spread through England is a testament of England's Scandinavian heritage.

    Now, Culture. Why is it that most English school-children know about the story of Beowulf? Because the story has been handed down through our Nordic/Germanic heritage. Why is the 'Robed Traveller' walking throughout the land featuring prominently in many stories and folk-tales told over the centuries? It is a hangover from our days of believing in Odin/Woden, who often was portrayed in a wandering-around kind of way.

    I can say a lot more if you want...
     
  18. Willowmound

    Willowmound Wordbug

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    I agree with most of what you say.

    The days of the week, however, were so named long before the Viking age. What people always forget, is that prior to Christianity the religion often referred to as 'Norse' was in fact the religion shared by all Germanic peoples. Including the Angles and the Saxons in Britannia.

    So the Vikings didn't bring 'Thursday' to England. Thor had been the god of weather in England since the first saxons arrived.

    (Interesting side note: While the other days of the week all have Germanic god-names in English, Saturday is named for the Roman god Saturn. In Scandinavia, Saturday is the only day not named for a god at all -- it was instead called laugardag, 'washing day', because that was the day when they took baths.)
     
  19. Captain2

    Captain2 ಠ_ృ

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    if i remember correctly, arent the months named by the Romans?

    just curious due to things like July and August, Julius and Augustus can be easily found from that
     
  20. Willowmound

    Willowmound Wordbug

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    You're absolutely right.
     

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