Civs and their luxuries

[Gerad]

Lately this has begun to annoy me. Have you ever noticed that when you want to trade luxuries with out civs instead of it being a direct trade 1 luxury for another.You have to give them a whole
lot just for their one luxury.


Take this for example I wanted to trade to get ivory from the french instead of just trading wine for it which is fair in order for them to agree I had to give them 4 of my luxuries for 1 of theirs I think thats pretty stupid.

Worse was with babyloians to get 1 of their luxuries they wanted all of my extra luxuries and 100 gold per turn!

My point is these demands are outrageous and only lead to war if they would just make fair trades 1 luxury for another no need for war but when they EXTORT ME with the 1 or 2 luxuries they have
they are just asking for it. I`ve been forced to conquer a couple of other civs just for luxuries but if they would have been reasonable that would never have had to happen.

Does this bother anyone else? yet another major problem I find with this game.

 

[rdomarat]

I think this is just good interpretation of supply and demand rules that govern economics from the AI. I'll bet nobody else has extra ivory, so if you want it, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. You can look at the bargaining table and see that your opponent has tons of extra luxuries and so can the AI. Obviously, the AI knows you can afford to send some extra luxuries his way, since you're not using them anyway.

Furthermore, the AI is also determining the price for all trades based on their relationship with you. If they're pissed off at you, the price goes up. If you've got a friendly relationship with them, the price is lower. Was the leader "Annoyed" or "Furious" with you when you were making the trade? Try floating a few gifts their way (like territory maps or some outdated techs) and try and change their attitude towards you. Not only will your price for luxuries/resources go down in the trade, but the civ will be much more likely to join MPP or Military Alliances with you.

Finally, anything the AI does to you, you can do back to them. You really wanted ivory, so they increased the price. When you have something they want really badly (like signing a peace treaty when you have 30 cavalry just outside their capitol), make sure they pay through the nose for it too.

 

[Ripley]

For me it usually seems to go the other way. I find that some Civs are prepared to pay extrordinary amounts for luxuries. I make more money off luxuries (assuming I have them) than I have ever made from brokering maps and techs.

Hold on to some of your extra luxuries for when other Civs go to war.

 

[spycatcher34]

I agree with Gread on this. It is ridiculas. Supply and Demand nothing. They need your resource just as much as you need theirs. "impoved" diplomacy. Yeah right.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Actually, something I found out while looking through the editor. The luxury resources are NOT equal. The following are the commerse values of the resources. Note that in the particular mention they gave, Wine is NOT equal to Ivory. Now granted the computer has the tendency to charge you through the roof for these...but YOU CAN TOO. If you have the 'better' luxury resource when the 20 rounds are up, jack up the price some.

Wine: 1 (+Food 1)
Furs: 1 (+Shield 1)
Dyes: 1
Incense: 1
Spices: 2
Ivory: 2
Silks: 3
Gems: 4

 

[Publius]

Originally posted by rdomarat
Furthermore, the AI is also determining the price for all trades based on their relationship with you. If they're pissed off at you, the price goes up. If you've got a friendly relationship with them, the price is lower.

Not only that, but the AI also looks at your culture ratings, military power and reputation when it sets asking prices. I have found that if he is "polite" to me, is "in awe of" my culture, and "fears" my newest military units, he is often more willing to make a good deal. Your reputation also is a big factor, so watch it whenever you decide to make or break a deal.

That being said: especially at higher difficulty levels, it's tough to get tha far ahead. And even if you are that far ahead, they usually will become envious, i.e. "annoyed", even if you have been buddies all game. Sometimes, you simply have to take whatever you need. With strategic resources, it's even worse.

 

[Troyens]

Originally posted by spycatcher34
I agree with Gread on this. It is ridiculas. Supply and Demand nothing. They need your resource just as much as you need theirs. "impoved" diplomacy. Yeah right.

Ridiculas or ridiculous, it is indeed stupid. I once offered a civ three luxury items for one of there's, plus my World Map, and no deal! The other civ's Economic/Trade advisor is an idiot!

Problems with the AI seem to be all over this forum.

 

[Gerad]

Why do people always have to defend firaxis Do you people know the people at firaxis are not GODS Sid Meier IS NOT A GOD!!!! they mess up like everyone else and they messed up quite a bit with this game I still like it though. Stop RATIONALIZING the mistakes firaxis makes already.

heres my situation with the luxuries I have A HUGE Miliary I have 5 luxuries they have 1 or 2, and small weak militay I have SUPERIOR culture they have none. Yet I want some of their luxuries not only do they want all of mine for their 1 or 2 they want 300 gold PER TURN!!! then I tell them give me the luxuries or die they chose to die of course, it's foolish.

The AI just doesn`t have any logic. Instead of having fair trades they made exorbiant demands and everyone loses especially the AI. I will say those that have the luxuries are on other contients and don`t like but shouldn`t matter considering they are a only a 2 turns from my ships and my 150 Calvary.

It's just dumb I`m forced to invade and take the luxuries why wouldn`t the A.I. just make a deal? Supply and Demand my foot thats foolish Irrelvant military size is what matters in these deals.
I guess the AI doesn`t take A countries power into consideration when dealing with trade Even if the AI hates you to save their butts they should be willing to make fair trades or even give you their luxuries.

 

[simwiz2]

"I have 5 luxuries they have 1 or 2"

The more luxuries you have, the more happy faces each new luxury gives. In a city with a marketplace, the first 2 luxuries give 1 happy face each, second 2 give 2 apiece, third 2 give 3 each, and so on. So this 6th luxury that your trying to get, giving you 3 happy faces, is worth more than the 2nd or third luxury you are giving them, giving them either 1 or 2 happy faces. Also make sure they have extras of the luxury. An AI will almost NEVER trade a luxury that it only has one of. It does not want to lose the happy face.

edit: typos

 

[Gerad]

Ok I`ll make this clear the AI has 5 or 6 extra Dyes I have 5 Types of Luxuries many of those types ok.

AI doesn`t want to make fair trades

 

[Ironikinit]

No, it really doesn't. I suppose the different AI civs trade with each other more evenly, it's the human player who gets reamed.

It's not a mistake or a fault, tho. It's supposed to be like that. Did you complain when Inky in Pac Man didn't try to eat the other ghosts?

If the AI gave fair trades, the human would have too easy of a time. As it is, I find it pretty easy to exploit the AI once I'm ahead on tech.

 

[enelrad]

I have found that if you put something on the table an ask what they will give for it, you get a better deal than if you put what you want from them. I get stuff I wouldn't dream of asking for in this way.

 

[Psychlone]

I agree that the AI's not trading one for one on lux is annoying, but it does make some sense. What it really comes down to is that if you're bigger than they are, they know the trade will benefit you more, so they ask for more in return.

The trading game will certainly get interesting when multiplayer comes out, anyhow.

 

[Mr Spice]

Why do people always have to defend firaxis Do you people know the people at firaxis are not GODS Sid Meier IS NOT A GOD!!!! they mess up like everyone else and they messed up quite a bit with this game I still like it though. Stop RATIONALIZING the mistakes firaxis makes already.

Rather touchy, aren´t you Gerad?

The people that you so furiously "accuse" of rationalizing have good points, why don´t you listen to them? You might even learn how to handle trade better...

And BTW, I have traded luxuries one to one quite a few times. Once in a while the AI will even sweeten the deal with a decent amount of gold, or whatever. It´s just a question of supply and demand, as has already been pointed out by others.

 

[Gerad]

Ok all that is true the stuff with the AI they have something I want I have to pay for it it's valuable makes sense.

What bothers me is the AI doesn`t take military strength into account. It annoys me when a civ on a little island won`t give me the luxury I want unless I pay him 500 gold per turn.

The AI doesn`t get that I could easily wipe him out instead they have be stupid about it. I`ve invaded and taken that country in maybe 5 turns.

The whole thing that bothers me is the AI should know this that I can kill him without a problem. So why not give into my demands
and save yourself foolish.

and the result is I have extra cities that I don`t need that are corrupted because they are too far. Just the Luxuries

It would be nice if they could make the AI understand what military power really is. espically the more advanced you are the more powerfull you are.Right now the AI doesn`t know the difference between a warrior and tank but then again thats a whole different problem but all these problems seem to come togeather don`t they

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by enelrad
I have found that if you put something on the table an ask what they will give for it, you get a better deal than if you put what you want from them. I get stuff I wouldn't dream of asking for in this way.

I have found that this works wonders too! Amazing what they will offer sometimes for 1 luxury or an outdated tech.

I am guessing. Only guessing. This may have something to do with limiting the exploitability of the AI. Maybe the idea is that if you offer a total package deal the AI is programmed to accept less. Whereas if you offer something, the AI will offer what it believes is fair market value. This could be firaxis' way of building a safeguard to trade exploits since they can't know ahead of time how sneaky humans can be -- even at the trade table.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Gerad
Ok all that is true the stuff with the AI they have something I want I have to pay for it it's valuable makes sense.

What bothers me is the AI doesn`t take military strength into account. It annoys me when a civ on a little island won`t give me the luxury I want unless I pay him 500 gold per turn.

The AI doesn`t get that I could easily wipe him out instead they have be stupid about it. I`ve invaded and taken that country in maybe 5 turns.

The whole thing that bothers me is the AI should know this that I can kill him without a problem. So why not give into my demands
and save yourself foolish.

and the result is I have extra cities that I don`t need that are corrupted because they are too far. Just the Luxuries

It would be nice if they could make the AI understand what military power really is. espically the more advanced you are the more powerfull you are.Right now the AI doesn`t know the difference between a warrior and tank but then again thats a whole different problem but all these problems seem to come togeather don`t they

So what is wrong with that? Let's look at this in terms of the 'real' world perspective:

US (mightiest power in history) threatens to declare war on Saudia Arabia (OPEC Nation) unless Saudia Arabia lowers oil prices. Or how about, US threatens war on Canada unless Canada lowers price of electricity.

In both cases, both countries would go to war knowing full well that they will lose. In case 1, Saudi's will never accept militaristic demands of any western nation, especially the US. In case 2, Canadians, accustomed to the concept of a 'free and democratic society', will never accept being dictated to by foreign military power.

Corruption if we take it by force? YOU BET! FOR SURE! FOREGONE CONCLUSION! ABSOLUTELY!

I do not believe for 1 second that if Saudi Arabia was taken by force, by any western democracy, that its citizenry and assets would be 'productive'. I also do not believe for 1 sec. that if Canadian territory were taken by force that its formerly 'free and democratic' citizenry would be productive for the conquerers. The conquerer will have ganied access to the resources; however, they should not expect the citizenry to be productive. That is what corruption reflects in this case, isn't it?

In this matter, the game is a pretty good reflection of reality.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

the strange thing I see with Lux trading: they`ll demand 3:1 when you have lots - OK, that`s logical. but they`ll give you 1:3 and tech-for-tech when that tech they desperately want is only 1 or 2 turns away for them anyway! So either they have or they don`t have an understanding of resources worth........????? :crazyeyes

 

[Sodak]

simwiz2 states it well, Gerad - if you are to gain 50 happy citizens from an even trade while the AI gains only 8, you can be sure he will make you pay. Check the score screen sometime, see what the main factors are. You might then understand why it will cost you.

If you don't like the answers you've gotten (which seem to shed great amounts of light on your problem), what do you want to hear? You've received much good advice, try taking it before getting vehement...

 

[eyrei]

Since each source of a luxury or a strategic resource supports your entire civ, the larger your population, the more it will cost you. If your population is larger than your trading partner's, you will not be able to trade luxuries 1 to 1, but will have to throw something else his way. If you are that much larger than your trading partner, and are having to trade 5 luxuries to his one, you need to start playing on a higher level. Most of the time I have to pay some gold/turn to add to my luxury trade with the AI. I also imagine that the AI values luxuries it trades with other AIs in the same way.