Civs discussion thread

Rhye

's and Fall creator
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Considering that the timeline goes from 3000BC to 600AD, which civs will be in this mod?

Greek World featured these:
Spoiler :
Rome
Persia
Macedonia
Egypt (not playable)
India (not playable)
Greek City-States (not playable)
Babylonia (not playable)
Phoenicia (not playable)
Celts (not playable, minor nation)
Judah (not playable, minor nation)
Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
Scythia (not playable, minor nation)
Greek Colonies (not playable, minor nation)
Parthia (not playable, hidden)
Seleucia (not playable, minor nation, hidden)


The Ancient Mediterranean, for comparison, features these:
Spoiler :
Babylon
Gaul
Mycenae
Rome
Scythia
Egypt
Iberian Tribes
Germanic Tribes
Carthage
Lydia
Phoenicia
Kolchis
Illyria
Persia
Medes
Britons
Goths
Nubia
Tartessia
Assyria
Dacia
Hittites
Minoan
Thrace



This is my list instead:

Spoiler :
Egypt
Babylonia
Phoenicia
Celts
Israel
Athens
Sparta
Persia
Macedonia
Carthage
Rome
Huns
Parthia?
Hittites?

Byzantium (not playable from the beginning)
Illyria? (not playable, minor nation)
Scythia? (not playable, minor nation)

Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
Goths? (not playable, minor nation)
Independent (not playable, minor nation)
Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)


Only 1 of the ? should be in, in order to keep the number of civs below or equal to 18.

As you can see, the size of Greece (see map thread) allows us to contain 3 civs. Looking forward to a Peloponnessian War!
 
Allready a nice list!

Would Scythia not beter by a barbarian invasion than a minor civ?

Parthia is Persia in a later time (dynamic civ-naming?)

Illyria as minor civ could be nice, gives Rome something to conquer

About the Goths: they're a Germanic tribe, so why add them? On the other hand, they build empires around the medditeranian (Italy and Spain), so maybe a late game playable civ. Maybe adding the Franks too then, as the where Roman Fuderatii and fought the Huns and build an empire after the fall of Rome and before 600AD

What about Carthage? Will it be Phoenician?
 
Parthia: No, they were just a re-development of Persia
Scythia: Not a bad choice for an unplayable civ.
Hittites: I am in favor of a civ in the Upper Mesopotamia/East Anatolia, but I dunno if they beat Assyrians to that.
Goths: Germanic tribes are already included.
Illyria: Not a bad choice for a minor.

Huns: Playable? And OK Celts had some civilizations. But Huns??? They would only have UHVs of ''raze n cities'', and in opposite of Mongols, who eventually created an empire, Huns didnt. I would favor them becoming a huge barb invasion.

Where is Carthago? I know you have Phoenicians, I know that Carthago was a Phoenician outpost, but couldnt it become independent, during an ala USA revolution?
Finally, good luck on this one Rhye!
 
Huns: Playable? And OK Celts had some civilizations. But Huns??? They would only have UHVs of ''raze n cities'', and in opposite of Mongols, who eventually created an empire, Huns didnt. I would favor them becoming a huge barb invasion.

I agree. Besides, where would they spawn? A massive Hun army consisting of regular units and unplayable Hun UU's would be enough in my opinion. People more educated on the matter can elaborate what unit it would replace and in what way.
 
oops, I forgot Carthage. Of course, it has to be in. It's going to be like America in RFC.

I was thinking of Huns exactly like you said: a UHV of city razing. If it works, would be fun.

Parthia may be too similar to Persia, but how can we add some competition in east Asia?
 
I'd suggest the Hittites as playable. (The obvious counter to Egypt in the early game and maybe collapsing with the spawn of the Phoenicians). And the Scythians as unplayable. No more than that if you want to keep it at around 18 civs.:)
 
Parthia may be too similar to Persia, but how can we add some competition in east Asia?

1)Umm...perhaps a strong unplayable civ (Bactrians, Aryans)? Parthians would spawn around 200 BC, but where? AFAIK both the Persian and the Parthian empire had a strong core.
2) Or 2-3 indy or barb cities (Baktra, Samarkand, Pura) and continous barb (Scythe) invasions.
 
I think in the new map there is enough for for the Etruscans as a playable civ. I think they have a lot to offer to the game, seeing as you want to include them already as a NPC (non-playable civilizations).

I there should be only Persia, but it shouldn't have competition in the East, only in the West. Persia will have to face the Mesopotamian Kingdoms (easily) but its major enemy until Macedonia should be stability. According to just maps I found, the Seleucid Empire got push backed by Parthia ~150 BC, Parthia lasted until ~300 AD when the Persians re-took over. Besides, if you add Parthia, why not add the Medians?

I also have a lot of ideas for the Phoenicians, in terms a UU, UP, and a couple UHVs.
-The UU could be of a different nature. It wouldn't replace a type of ship. It could be a trading vessel. Phoenicians, as I have read, didn't make ships for the purposes of war, but upgraded their trading vessels in times of war, downgrading them back to a trading vessel when the conflict was over. So maybe they could have a ship that could upgrade to a Bireme, and downgrade from a Bireme, at a low cost. The trading ships could have a +1 movement, the ability to enter the ocean, and be able to [do that thing that Great Merchants do, but only be able to get a few coins at a time, and never two times in a row at the same city.
-Two UHVs could involve this UU:
1. Be the first to found a city on the West coast of Iberia or Morocco.
2. Circumnavigate Africa by xxx BC.
-The UP could be the Power of the Purple Dye. Increased commerce on coastal cities and +2 gold from each dye.
 
1) I don't think that the Phoenicians found many cities W of Carthage, in fact it was Carthaginians who colonized the entire west Mediterranean sea (I don't think either that, in this map format, one could say that 'hey I circumnavigated Africa!', while it is Africa as it was in Eratosthenes' (IIRC) map).
2) The ship idea is a very nice one, I approve it.
3) Proposed UHVs (choose the ones you prefer, is the project going to keep 3 UHVs?)
- Settle 10 (overkill?) seaside cities
- Reveal any sea tile by 400 BC
- Lose no cities to Hebrews, Babylonians, Persians and Hittites till 330 BC.
- Control 5 different luxury resources
- Have 4000 gold by 500 BC
- Be the first to research alphabet.
4) Spawn date for Phoenicia? 900BC?
 
I beg to differ. The Phoenicians founded a lot of places west of Cathage, some were only trading posts, but others later grew into important Carthaginian towns. Some examples of these include:

Oea (Tripoli)
Rusadir (Melilla)
Tingis (Tangier)
Gadir (Cadiz)
Malaka (Malaga)
Abdera (Huelva)
Carmona (Carmona)
Ossonoba (Faro)
Ossipona (Lisbon)
 
Well, OK, I concede the point.
 
The Hittites should definetly be included as a playable civ(good for balance) and Scythia as a non-playable one. I also support the Huns being added because even though they weren't historically a civ, they made a huge mark on history and would be loads of fun to play. Maybe they could be like the Mongols in the Genghis Khan warlords scenario and have camps, or they could be similar to the barbarian scenario where you buy units. Or they could just start with X amount of units and no settlers and they could only ransom or raze cities. What do you guys think?
 
north of the greeks lived the thracians-dacians-getae, getae=dacians, they were named getae by the greeks and dacians by the romans. the region inhabited by them was quite large...
Dacia_82_BC.png

ah forgot, dacians(getae) are often considered a branch of thracians.
Getae_200bc.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
my ideas about introducing the dacians are quite disorganised because there are so many to say...
the greeks founded colonies on the shores of the black sea... the relations with the greeks were very very good.
the romans were the problem :lol:
"Greek geographer Strabo claimed that the Dacians and Getae once had been able to muster a combined army of 200,000 men during Strabo's era (i.e. the time of Roman emperor Augustus (sole rule 30 BC - 14 AD)." "The Roman Emperor Trajan (ruled 97 - 117 AD) decided to conquer the Dacian kingdom, partly in order to seize its vast gold mines. But it took him two major wars (the Dacian Wars), one in 101-102 AD and the other one in 105-106 AD."
"In 48 BC, Burebista sided with Pompey during his struggle against Julius Caesar in the Roman civil war. After Caesar emerged as victor, he planned on sending legions to punish Burebista, but he was assassinated in the Senate before he could do so, on March 15 44 BC. Burebista died the same year, but whether he was assassinated in a court plot or his death had natural causes is a matter that remains uncertain."
Dacia was very rich in gold... details about the wars with the romans can be found on Trajan's Column in Rome
Roman_empire_1stcen.jpg

I really don't know whether it should be minor or playable but there should really be something to represent the region north of the balkans around the Carpathian Mountains and to the Black Sea and those shouldn't be the celts, the scythians or whichever other civ comes in mind.
(sorry for spelling or the ambiguous message, wrote in a rush)
 
The civ question is a very tricky question and does in my opinion depend on several factors:
- The map: Has it enough place for every civ? What does seem to be balanced?
- The gameplay: Every Civ needs to have interaction with several other civs and shouldn't be alone, in other words, most civ needs to have an opposite player (Rome-Carthage).
- Historical Simulation: That's what RFC is all about. So, the civ list and the gameplay need to make sure that Rome can conquer the mediterranean (without winning domination victory) so to make the spawning of byzantine not totally strange? And what to do with the Greeek successor states (Seleukia foremost?) that Alex should end up conquering? There shouldn't be too many "barbarian civs" in my opinion too. The gameplay doesn't differ that much, they would be in the same region of the map and you can save the spots ;-)

So, your map with the civs regions (excluding the ones with a ?):
attachment.php


Your list
Spoiler :
Egypt
Babylonia
Phoenicia
Celts
Israel
Athens
Sparta
Persia
Macedonia
Carthage
Rome
Huns
Parthia?
Hittites?
Byzantium (not playable from the beginning)
Illyria? (not playable, minor nation)
Scythia? (not playable, minor nation)
Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
Goths? (not playable, minor nation)
Independent (not playable, minor nation)
Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)


We see there's

- room for the Hittites, but a enemy-relationship with egypt would be strange because of the distance.
- room for the Parthians as a northern persian horse raider people. They would also shake things up as there doesn't seem too much going on in the region if the greeks or romans don't invade
- Illyria has place, but it'd only interact with Rome, maybe the Celts and the Macedonians or as a source for pirate ships in the med. Does it really necessitate a single minor civ spot? (or playable on the other hand) The same thing with Etruria, but I do think we need one more civ in the region so that the Romans, Celts and Carthaginian don't feel so alone.
- Scythia would just be a barbarian nation in the spot of the huns and the Goths would just be a barbarian nation in the spot of the Germanic people. So for playability you could save the spot, but for historicity...
- The MAcedonians would quickly conquer half of the map and then collapse (historical).
- Seleukia has as a civ unfortunately no place, maybe if you'd scratch the hittites.
- How do you want to represent the asia minor civs like pergamon or bithnya? They would have place but we do not have room in the civ list. But the area looks empty.
- Babylon has a rather large undisputed mesopotamia for themselves. And nobody even mentionned the Assyrians (the three great empires: Egypt, Hethites, Assyrians?). So there's no place for another civ. But what about replacing babylon (just a city) with an empire (Assyria)?
- Rome would probably win a domination victory if it did what it historically did. So the civ Rome needs either to be designed specially but historical or ahistorical and like the other nations (like: in rl life rome won a domination victory, that doesn't have to be the case...)

- How do you want to design exactly the special cases of: Byzantium, Rome, Alex's Empire? (Byzantium being the big question here)

My list
Spoiler :
Egypt
Babylonia OR Assyria
Phoenicia
Celts
Israel
Athens
Sparta
Persia
Macedonia
Carthage
Rome
Huns
Parthia
Hittites
Asia-Minor Civ: Pergamon, Bythnia or even a Seleukia "out of place"
Byzantium (not playable from the beginning) How to implement? I cannot imagine?
Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
Independent (not playable, minor nation)
Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)
 

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I think some of the special cases will have to be implemented with new mechanics. Perhaps, for instance, a unique power for Macedonia that encourages them to engage in rapid but unsustainable conquest. So they expand quickly but are very prone to collapse due to stability soon afterwards. In the human's case, this should obviously be tied to the UHV, but I'm sure Rhye has already thought of that.
 
We have a bunch of ideas from the Antiquity threads, but I think Etruria, if it is included, might as well be a playable nation. I can do the research for their uniques.
 
- Babylon has a rather large undisputed mesopotamia for themselves. And nobody even mentionned the Assyrians (the three great empires: Egypt, Hethites, Assyrians?). So there's no place for another civ. But what about replacing babylon (just a city) with an empire (Assyria)?

The Hittites would be a competitor with Babylon.
 
I just want to say that the Hittites NEED to be in. Not only did they control almost all of Asia Minor, Syria, and the Levant, but they sacked Babylon, fought against Egypt in some HUGE battles, had terrible relations with the Mycenaeans, and most likely were involved with the Trojan War. I think the importance of the Hittites seems to be completely misunderstood; they were not provincial principalities like Bithynia, but were THE major power north of the Levant. In fact most international questions in the golden age of Egypt (its 18th dynasty) related to Hittite containment. So who do the Hittites have as opponents? Babylon. Mycenae. Egypt. (and the sea peoples, but i think they could be represented with barbs.)

let me see if i can get some ideas:

UU: Three-man Chariot works (a la civ 3) basically they had lighter chariots than other peoples in the area which allowed them better mobility, etc. and so could have an extra movement point?

UB: this is hard, but an initial though is some sort of wall replacement that gives them extra defense and maybe something else? ill come back to this. (yazlikaya shrine works as a world wonder)

UHV:

1) No foreign culture in Asia Minor by 1200 BC
2) Control 3 (or more/less) cities in the Levant by 1000 BC
3) Vassalize one other empire (pref. either Babylon or Mycenae)

UP: ? i need to come back here too.

BUT they need to be in.
 
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