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Civs discussion thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World' started by Rhye, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Considering that the timeline goes from 3000BC to 600AD, which civs will be in this mod?

    Greek World featured these:
    Spoiler :
    Rome
    Persia
    Macedonia
    Egypt (not playable)
    India (not playable)
    Greek City-States (not playable)
    Babylonia (not playable)
    Phoenicia (not playable)
    Celts (not playable, minor nation)
    Judah (not playable, minor nation)
    Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
    Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
    Scythia (not playable, minor nation)
    Greek Colonies (not playable, minor nation)
    Parthia (not playable, hidden)
    Seleucia (not playable, minor nation, hidden)


    The Ancient Mediterranean, for comparison, features these:
    Spoiler :
    Babylon
    Gaul
    Mycenae
    Rome
    Scythia
    Egypt
    Iberian Tribes
    Germanic Tribes
    Carthage
    Lydia
    Phoenicia
    Kolchis
    Illyria
    Persia
    Medes
    Britons
    Goths
    Nubia
    Tartessia
    Assyria
    Dacia
    Hittites
    Minoan
    Thrace



    This is my list instead:

    Spoiler :
    Egypt
    Babylonia
    Phoenicia
    Celts
    Israel
    Athens
    Sparta
    Persia
    Macedonia
    Carthage
    Rome
    Huns
    Parthia?
    Hittites?

    Byzantium (not playable from the beginning)
    Illyria? (not playable, minor nation)
    Scythia? (not playable, minor nation)

    Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
    Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
    Goths? (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)


    Only 1 of the ? should be in, in order to keep the number of civs below or equal to 18.

    As you can see, the size of Greece (see map thread) allows us to contain 3 civs. Looking forward to a Peloponnessian War!
     
  2. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Reserved for the final list
     
  3. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I am not sure the is room for Parthia and Persia. From your list of maybes I would like to see the Scythians in the game.
     
  4. SadoMacho

    SadoMacho spanker of civilizations

    Joined:
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    Flanders, Belgium
    Allready a nice list!

    Would Scythia not beter by a barbarian invasion than a minor civ?

    Parthia is Persia in a later time (dynamic civ-naming?)

    Illyria as minor civ could be nice, gives Rome something to conquer

    About the Goths: they're a Germanic tribe, so why add them? On the other hand, they build empires around the medditeranian (Italy and Spain), so maybe a late game playable civ. Maybe adding the Franks too then, as the where Roman Fuderatii and fought the Huns and build an empire after the fall of Rome and before 600AD

    What about Carthage? Will it be Phoenician?
     
  5. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Parthia: No, they were just a re-development of Persia
    Scythia: Not a bad choice for an unplayable civ.
    Hittites: I am in favor of a civ in the Upper Mesopotamia/East Anatolia, but I dunno if they beat Assyrians to that.
    Goths: Germanic tribes are already included.
    Illyria: Not a bad choice for a minor.

    Huns: Playable? And OK Celts had some civilizations. But Huns??? They would only have UHVs of ''raze n cities'', and in opposite of Mongols, who eventually created an empire, Huns didnt. I would favor them becoming a huge barb invasion.

    Where is Carthago? I know you have Phoenicians, I know that Carthago was a Phoenician outpost, but couldnt it become independent, during an ala USA revolution?
    Finally, good luck on this one Rhye!
     
  6. Cethegus

    Cethegus Chieftain

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    I agree. Besides, where would they spawn? A massive Hun army consisting of regular units and unplayable Hun UU's would be enough in my opinion. People more educated on the matter can elaborate what unit it would replace and in what way.
     
  7. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    oops, I forgot Carthage. Of course, it has to be in. It's going to be like America in RFC.

    I was thinking of Huns exactly like you said: a UHV of city razing. If it works, would be fun.

    Parthia may be too similar to Persia, but how can we add some competition in east Asia?
     
  8. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I'd suggest the Hittites as playable. (The obvious counter to Egypt in the early game and maybe collapsing with the spawn of the Phoenicians). And the Scythians as unplayable. No more than that if you want to keep it at around 18 civs.:)
     
  9. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    1)Umm...perhaps a strong unplayable civ (Bactrians, Aryans)? Parthians would spawn around 200 BC, but where? AFAIK both the Persian and the Parthian empire had a strong core.
    2) Or 2-3 indy or barb cities (Baktra, Samarkand, Pura) and continous barb (Scythe) invasions.
     
  10. ZachScape

    ZachScape Chieftain

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    I think in the new map there is enough for for the Etruscans as a playable civ. I think they have a lot to offer to the game, seeing as you want to include them already as a NPC (non-playable civilizations).

    I there should be only Persia, but it shouldn't have competition in the East, only in the West. Persia will have to face the Mesopotamian Kingdoms (easily) but its major enemy until Macedonia should be stability. According to just maps I found, the Seleucid Empire got push backed by Parthia ~150 BC, Parthia lasted until ~300 AD when the Persians re-took over. Besides, if you add Parthia, why not add the Medians?

    I also have a lot of ideas for the Phoenicians, in terms a UU, UP, and a couple UHVs.
    -The UU could be of a different nature. It wouldn't replace a type of ship. It could be a trading vessel. Phoenicians, as I have read, didn't make ships for the purposes of war, but upgraded their trading vessels in times of war, downgrading them back to a trading vessel when the conflict was over. So maybe they could have a ship that could upgrade to a Bireme, and downgrade from a Bireme, at a low cost. The trading ships could have a +1 movement, the ability to enter the ocean, and be able to [do that thing that Great Merchants do, but only be able to get a few coins at a time, and never two times in a row at the same city.
    -Two UHVs could involve this UU:
    1. Be the first to found a city on the West coast of Iberia or Morocco.
    2. Circumnavigate Africa by xxx BC.
    -The UP could be the Power of the Purple Dye. Increased commerce on coastal cities and +2 gold from each dye.
     
  11. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    1) I don't think that the Phoenicians found many cities W of Carthage, in fact it was Carthaginians who colonized the entire west Mediterranean sea (I don't think either that, in this map format, one could say that 'hey I circumnavigated Africa!', while it is Africa as it was in Eratosthenes' (IIRC) map).
    2) The ship idea is a very nice one, I approve it.
    3) Proposed UHVs (choose the ones you prefer, is the project going to keep 3 UHVs?)
    - Settle 10 (overkill?) seaside cities
    - Reveal any sea tile by 400 BC
    - Lose no cities to Hebrews, Babylonians, Persians and Hittites till 330 BC.
    - Control 5 different luxury resources
    - Have 4000 gold by 500 BC
    - Be the first to research alphabet.
    4) Spawn date for Phoenicia? 900BC?
     
  12. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I beg to differ. The Phoenicians founded a lot of places west of Cathage, some were only trading posts, but others later grew into important Carthaginian towns. Some examples of these include:

    Oea (Tripoli)
    Rusadir (Melilla)
    Tingis (Tangier)
    Gadir (Cadiz)
    Malaka (Malaga)
    Abdera (Huelva)
    Carmona (Carmona)
    Ossonoba (Faro)
    Ossipona (Lisbon)
     
  13. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Well, OK, I concede the point.
     
  14. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    The Hittites should definetly be included as a playable civ(good for balance) and Scythia as a non-playable one. I also support the Huns being added because even though they weren't historically a civ, they made a huge mark on history and would be loads of fun to play. Maybe they could be like the Mongols in the Genghis Khan warlords scenario and have camps, or they could be similar to the barbarian scenario where you buy units. Or they could just start with X amount of units and no settlers and they could only ransom or raze cities. What do you guys think?
     
  15. tomitian

    tomitian Chieftain

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    north of the greeks lived the thracians-dacians-getae, getae=dacians, they were named getae by the greeks and dacians by the romans. the region inhabited by them was quite large...

    ah forgot, dacians(getae) are often considered a branch of thracians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
    my ideas about introducing the dacians are quite disorganised because there are so many to say...
    the greeks founded colonies on the shores of the black sea... the relations with the greeks were very very good.
    the romans were the problem :lol:
    "Greek geographer Strabo claimed that the Dacians and Getae once had been able to muster a combined army of 200,000 men during Strabo's era (i.e. the time of Roman emperor Augustus (sole rule 30 BC - 14 AD)." "The Roman Emperor Trajan (ruled 97 - 117 AD) decided to conquer the Dacian kingdom, partly in order to seize its vast gold mines. But it took him two major wars (the Dacian Wars), one in 101-102 AD and the other one in 105-106 AD."
    "In 48 BC, Burebista sided with Pompey during his struggle against Julius Caesar in the Roman civil war. After Caesar emerged as victor, he planned on sending legions to punish Burebista, but he was assassinated in the Senate before he could do so, on March 15 44 BC. Burebista died the same year, but whether he was assassinated in a court plot or his death had natural causes is a matter that remains uncertain."
    Dacia was very rich in gold... details about the wars with the romans can be found on Trajan's Column in Rome

    I really don't know whether it should be minor or playable but there should really be something to represent the region north of the balkans around the Carpathian Mountains and to the Black Sea and those shouldn't be the celts, the scythians or whichever other civ comes in mind.
    (sorry for spelling or the ambiguous message, wrote in a rush)
     
  16. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    The civ question is a very tricky question and does in my opinion depend on several factors:
    - The map: Has it enough place for every civ? What does seem to be balanced?
    - The gameplay: Every Civ needs to have interaction with several other civs and shouldn't be alone, in other words, most civ needs to have an opposite player (Rome-Carthage).
    - Historical Simulation: That's what RFC is all about. So, the civ list and the gameplay need to make sure that Rome can conquer the mediterranean (without winning domination victory) so to make the spawning of byzantine not totally strange? And what to do with the Greeek successor states (Seleukia foremost?) that Alex should end up conquering? There shouldn't be too many "barbarian civs" in my opinion too. The gameplay doesn't differ that much, they would be in the same region of the map and you can save the spots ;-)

    So, your map with the civs regions (excluding the ones with a ?):


    Your list
    Spoiler :
    Egypt
    Babylonia
    Phoenicia
    Celts
    Israel
    Athens
    Sparta
    Persia
    Macedonia
    Carthage
    Rome
    Huns
    Parthia?
    Hittites?
    Byzantium (not playable from the beginning)
    Illyria? (not playable, minor nation)
    Scythia? (not playable, minor nation)
    Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
    Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
    Goths? (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)


    We see there's

    - room for the Hittites, but a enemy-relationship with egypt would be strange because of the distance.
    - room for the Parthians as a northern persian horse raider people. They would also shake things up as there doesn't seem too much going on in the region if the greeks or romans don't invade
    - Illyria has place, but it'd only interact with Rome, maybe the Celts and the Macedonians or as a source for pirate ships in the med. Does it really necessitate a single minor civ spot? (or playable on the other hand) The same thing with Etruria, but I do think we need one more civ in the region so that the Romans, Celts and Carthaginian don't feel so alone.
    - Scythia would just be a barbarian nation in the spot of the huns and the Goths would just be a barbarian nation in the spot of the Germanic people. So for playability you could save the spot, but for historicity...
    - The MAcedonians would quickly conquer half of the map and then collapse (historical).
    - Seleukia has as a civ unfortunately no place, maybe if you'd scratch the hittites.
    - How do you want to represent the asia minor civs like pergamon or bithnya? They would have place but we do not have room in the civ list. But the area looks empty.
    - Babylon has a rather large undisputed mesopotamia for themselves. And nobody even mentionned the Assyrians (the three great empires: Egypt, Hethites, Assyrians?). So there's no place for another civ. But what about replacing babylon (just a city) with an empire (Assyria)?
    - Rome would probably win a domination victory if it did what it historically did. So the civ Rome needs either to be designed specially but historical or ahistorical and like the other nations (like: in rl life rome won a domination victory, that doesn't have to be the case...)

    - How do you want to design exactly the special cases of: Byzantium, Rome, Alex's Empire? (Byzantium being the big question here)

    My list
    Spoiler :
    Egypt
    Babylonia OR Assyria
    Phoenicia
    Celts
    Israel
    Athens
    Sparta
    Persia
    Macedonia
    Carthage
    Rome
    Huns
    Parthia
    Hittites
    Asia-Minor Civ: Pergamon, Bythnia or even a Seleukia "out of place"
    Byzantium (not playable from the beginning) How to implement? I cannot imagine?
    Etruria (not playable, minor nation)
    Germanic Tribes (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent (not playable, minor nation)
    Independent2 (not playable, minor nation)
     

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  17. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    I think some of the special cases will have to be implemented with new mechanics. Perhaps, for instance, a unique power for Macedonia that encourages them to engage in rapid but unsustainable conquest. So they expand quickly but are very prone to collapse due to stability soon afterwards. In the human's case, this should obviously be tied to the UHV, but I'm sure Rhye has already thought of that.
     
  18. ZachScape

    ZachScape Chieftain

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    We have a bunch of ideas from the Antiquity threads, but I think Etruria, if it is included, might as well be a playable nation. I can do the research for their uniques.
     
  19. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    The Hittites would be a competitor with Babylon.
     
  20. King Coltrane

    King Coltrane Chieftain

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    I just want to say that the Hittites NEED to be in. Not only did they control almost all of Asia Minor, Syria, and the Levant, but they sacked Babylon, fought against Egypt in some HUGE battles, had terrible relations with the Mycenaeans, and most likely were involved with the Trojan War. I think the importance of the Hittites seems to be completely misunderstood; they were not provincial principalities like Bithynia, but were THE major power north of the Levant. In fact most international questions in the golden age of Egypt (its 18th dynasty) related to Hittite containment. So who do the Hittites have as opponents? Babylon. Mycenae. Egypt. (and the sea peoples, but i think they could be represented with barbs.)

    let me see if i can get some ideas:

    UU: Three-man Chariot works (a la civ 3) basically they had lighter chariots than other peoples in the area which allowed them better mobility, etc. and so could have an extra movement point?

    UB: this is hard, but an initial though is some sort of wall replacement that gives them extra defense and maybe something else? ill come back to this. (yazlikaya shrine works as a world wonder)

    UHV:

    1) No foreign culture in Asia Minor by 1200 BC
    2) Control 3 (or more/less) cities in the Levant by 1000 BC
    3) Vassalize one other empire (pref. either Babylon or Mycenae)

    UP: ? i need to come back here too.

    BUT they need to be in.
     

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