Civs with Muskets UU

[Wuddel]

So anyone tired the Civs with unique muskets? America/Osman/France? Since Longswords upgrade into them now they seem much more useful. Do they keep their special promotions down the tech path?

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Yeah, I also thought the amount of musketmen replacements was dumb. And you missed spain. I aplaud the devs to making the caroleen a rigleman but in all honesty, they weren't. It was the mid to late 1600's ( 1660-1700 if my highschool/ college history classes stuck) and rifles weren't used in combat until the late 1700 (1770?) and weren't common until te mid 1800's. I get that many armies had unique ways of uning the new gunpowder technology, but I really think they should try finding more unique units (I also think the knight has 4 replacements.)

 

[Austria]

Musketmen are not as bad as knights who have 5 replacements (keshik, camal archer, conquistador, Naresuan's Elephant, and Mandekalu Cavalry)

 

[Adjuvant]

There are 10 "UU promotions" a rifleman can have (plus 3 riflemen). That's the benefit of "keeping alive" early era UUs.

Jaguar, Maori Warrior, Mohawk, Legion (roads, meh), Berserker, Samurai, Janissary, Minuteman, Musketeer, Tercio.

 

[Barghaest]

I've played America and France. The Minutemen were pretty nice and yes the Ignore Terrain Cost carried with upgrades making surviving Minutemen pretty nasty Infantry.

The Musketeers were pretty good as well, don't think they had a carry over promo though, just different stats than regular musketmen.

 

[Adjuvant]

I could have sworn musketeers get discipline bonus, but maybe only because I often play honor with them.

 

[ork75]

Yeah, I also thought the amount of musketmen replacements was dumb. And you missed spain. I aplaud the devs to making the caroleen a rigleman but in all honesty, they weren't. It was the mid to late 1600's ( 1660-1700 if my highschool/ college history classes stuck) and rifles weren't used in combat until the late 1700 (1770?) and weren't common until te mid 1800's

On a historical note, the Carolean is inaccurate because they fought with muskets while the Rifleman unit seems to represent American Civil War era line infantry (armed with rifle muskets). It should be a musketman replacement.

However, it is good that they made it a rifleman so there arent 20 types of muskets running around.

 

[Adjuvant]

Rifling existed in northern Europe in the 16th century, but the weapons needed to be hand-fashioned by experts, so they were very expensive and rare. You hear about "rifling" and "rifled muskets" more in the 19th century because technology advanced to a point the barrels could be "machined".

Did the Caroleans have "rifled muskets" in the 17th century? Some probably did, but to the casual observer, anything 2+ foot long and shot a projectile was a "musket". I just attribute their combat value to their tenacity.

 

[King_Course]

As far as I know, the American Minutemen lose out on the free promotion if they are from upgraded longswords. Much like Samurai don't get their free promotion if they are upgraded ironnmen. Might seem like not a big deal, but that promotion is the last of the promotions, meaning that the last promotions take alot of exp to get, but minutemen get it for free. So Samurai get March fast for example, and minutemen can do that too.

I usually play America with a few horses and archers while getting heroic epic and barracks and the other exp building, then churn out 4-6 minutemen that last me long into the game. Makes America a pretty viable military powerhouse with those troops and B17s.

But for the other musketmen you don't need to do the same anymore, and thats fine.

 

[ork75]

Rifling existed in northern Europe in the 16th century, but the weapons needed to be hand-fashioned by experts, so they were very expensive and rare. You hear about "rifling" and "rifled muskets" more in the 19th century because technology advanced to a point the barrels could be "machined".

Did the Caroleans have "rifled muskets" in the 17th century? Some probably did, but to the casual observer, anything 2+ foot long and shot a projectile was a "musket". I just attribute their combat value to their tenacity.

Wrong.
A rifled musket is a rifle (with grooved barrel). There is no real technological difference (except that they usually used percussion caps).
The difference is that they used Minie balls or other, similar ammunition allowing them the accuracy of a rifle combined with the loading speed of the musket.

Since Minie balls were not invented till the mid 1800's (and the Caroleans dominated in the 1600's and just about nowhere else in history), the Caroleans should be musketmen. However, as I said before, the design choice of adding them as riflemen makes the early Renaissance a little clearer in terms of UU's.

 

[Adjuvant]

It gives me samurai with japan when i upgrade from longswords...

 

[Adjuvant]

Wrong.
A rifled musket is a rifle (with grooved barrel). There is no real technological difference (except that they usually used percussion caps).
The difference is that they used Minie balls or other, similar ammunition allowing them the accuracy of a rifle combined with the loading speed of the musket.

Sure there's difference. Crafting those grooves in the barrel so they're the correct proportion and fluid is painstaking and very difficult by hand. Machines to mass produce them made them distributable to armies instead of wealthy peoples' novelties.

 

[ork75]

Sure there's difference. Crafting those grooves in the barrel so they're the correct proportion and fluid is painstaking and very difficult by hand. Machines to mass produce them made them distributable to armies instead of wealthy peoples' novelties.

Mhmm. I suppose so. The key difference is the type of round, as I believe old muskets could be converted and the problems with traditional rifles still existed no matter how fast they could be produced:
Before the Minie, rifle balls had to be larger than the barrel to ensure a tight fit, improving accuracy. However, this made them extremely difficult to reload as the ball, with wadding, had to be twisted down each spiral. The tight fit also made a rifle impossible to fire after a few shots as the ball would not fit down the barrel because of debris.
The key difference with the Minie was that the bullet was smaller than the barrel width. These new rounds had the same accuracy as the old rifles because the ball expanded to fit the barrel by using the hot gasses produced by the gunpowder going off. This kept accuracy but drastically improved firing rate and the number of times the weapon could be fired without cleaning.

The point is the Caroleans did not have this tech and actually equipped around half of their army with pikes, as was the style of early renaissance warfare.
If accuracy is to be placed over gameplay, Caroleans should be a musket replacement. However, the musket UU's are made more unique by making the Caroleans rifleman, thereby improving gameplay.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

On a historical note, the Carolean is inaccurate because they fought with muskets while the Rifleman unit seems to represent American Civil War era line infantry (armed with rifle muskets). It should be a musketman replacement.

However, it is good that they made it a rifleman so there arent 20 types of muskets running around.

I know. That is what I just said. I applaud them for not making another musketman, but they indeed were musketmen.

 

[Halcyan2]

There are 10 "UU promotions" a rifleman can have (plus 3 riflemen). That's the benefit of "keeping alive" early era UUs.

Jaguar, Maori Warrior, Mohawk, Legion (roads, meh), Berserker, Samurai, Janissary, Minuteman, Musketeer, Tercio.

Some traits don't carry over after upgrades.

In particular, road building for Legions does not continue when you make them into Longswordsmen (at least in Vanilla. Haven't played Rome in G&K yet).

 

[Barghaest]

Some traits don't carry over after upgrades.

In particular, road building for Legions does not continue when you make them into Longswordsmen (at least in Vanilla. Haven't played Rome in G&K yet).

No, road building won't carry over. It's not a promotion it's a factor under UnitBuilds and is set specificially for Roman_Legion unit so once they cease to be that type of unit they won't access Build_Road anymore.

 

[Crossed_Sabers]

As far as I know, the American Minutemen lose out on the free promotion if they are from upgraded longswords. Much like Samurai don't get their free promotion if they are upgraded ironnmen. Might seem like not a big deal, but that promotion is the last of the promotions, meaning that the last promotions take alot of exp to get, but minutemen get it for free. So Samurai get March fast for example, and minutemen can do that too.

I usually play America with a few horses and archers while getting heroic epic and barracks and the other exp building, then churn out 4-6 minutemen that last me long into the game. Makes America a pretty viable military powerhouse with those troops and B17s.

But for the other musketmen you don't need to do the same anymore, and thats fine.

Samurai have always gotten the free Shock promotion (if they didn't already have it) when upgraded from swordmen. This is still true in G&K.

 

[jjkrause84]

Wrong.
A rifled musket is a rifle (with grooved barrel). There is no real technological difference (except that they usually used percussion caps).
The difference is that they used Minie balls or other, similar ammunition allowing them the accuracy of a rifle combined with the loading speed of the musket.

Since Minie balls were not invented till the mid 1800's (and the Caroleans dominated in the 1600's and just about nowhere else in history), the Caroleans should be musketmen. However, as I said before, the design choice of adding them as riflemen makes the early Renaissance a little clearer in terms of UU's.

Actually, rifles did exist long before the middle 1800s. They were certainly in existence in the mid-1700s, and played a significant role in European warfare. The type of round used is not important (although rounds such as the Minie were improvements over traditional round shot). That said, yes; Caroleans should absolutely be musketmen.

EDIT: In hindsight you probably knew that already....

 

[Louis XXIV]

If anything, the Minutemen would make a better choice for a rifleman than the Carolean. They were later in time period and some American troops did use rifled muskets. Still before percussion caps and minie balls, but it's a start.

 

[Infiltrator]

Some traits don't carry over after upgrades.

In particular, road building for Legions does not continue when you make them into Longswordsmen (at least in Vanilla. Haven't played Rome in G&K yet).

Neither does the 3 speed from berserker, which is their biggest selling point. Muskets coming right after longswordsmen isn't helping them at all either as I've elaborated here.