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[NFP] Claification of Teddy BM culture - appeal - NP - improvement dependencies

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by enKage, Aug 10, 2020.

  1. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Maybe a little too late as Teddy is eliminated from CV thread, but I was accused to be wrong stating that culture for appeal gives tourism.

    I wrote this because what I think is national park tourism is the sum of appeal of tiles. And I have problem to explain myself, from where additional tourism in the amount of 6-8 is present in all my parks.

    First of all, this is a tiny city of Chicago, generating base 115 tourism and +100% versus every other civ in game (and more multiplyers from computeres, routes, OB and so on)
    The city has one wonder, 2 parks, 1 seaside resort and some great works in theatre square all generating tourism
    chicago.png


    So:

    a) national park marked generates 42 tourism. Sum of appeal is 34. Where does this missing 8 come from? Not culture, because culture would give only 4. Second national park has the same difference in tourism. Parks in other cities have 6-8 difference.
    b) Seaside resort is 8 appeal, should generate 8 tourism, generates 10. It looks like 2 culture is involved.
    c) you can see additional torism bubbles. These are..... plantations and pastures! Yes! all of them transform 2 culture from appeal near forest! All breathtakin pastures and plantations near forest give 2 tuorism for Teddy and you don't have to choose specific pantheon! Mines and quarries don't, because it must be a connection with pantheon. I think because pastures and plantations have potential to add culture via pantheon (while mines not), all their culture gained in other ways also grant torism. Possible check - St Basil tundra pasture, anyone can confirm it behaves the same way?

    If anyone can explain the difference in national parks culture-tourism, I would be happy, cause I don;t like not understanding something

    Autosave attached for more indepth look
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  2. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    I wasn't the ones that accused you, but you are still wrong.

    If you have used the tourism lens carefully you will know that for improvement tourism, the effect of +25% from the Computer tech or Environmentalism is counted. So that 42 is 34 + 25% = 42.5 rounded down. Check your seaside resorts you will see them getting an extra 25% here. (So if you have Cristo Redentor, that 8 gold seaside resort will generate 20 tourism in the Tourism Lens; and if you don't, it will generate 10 tourism. -- Oh you also checked your Seaside Resorts, maybe check one with 6 appeal, the lens will show you 7 instead of 8, that will convince you that the 2 culture there is not involved.)

    Culture from tile appeal does not give tourism. Just take a look at the upper left corner of your screenshot. All those tiles with culture output does not give tourism. No bubbles. Same as that Chichen Itza rainforest doesn't give tourism, St. Basil's Cathedral's tundra tiles doesn't give any either.

    I understand that tourism lens is sometimes a little confusing since for Great Works the bonus +25% seems not to appear there. But for tile improvement and wonders, it does. (CORRECTION: the +25% also appear there, an amphitheater with 2 writings provide 10 via the tooltip after Computer.)

    The tourism from pastures and plantations are probably due to buggy implementation and wasn't intentional. You know sometimes if you have Earth Goddess and make an improvement, the tooltip will tell you something like +1 food, +2 faith, although that +2 faith is already there from Earth Goddess? I believe this tourism problem is similar to that - that the game "thinks" the cultures on those tiles coming from the improvement although they were already there prior to the improvement.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  3. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Oh now I got it!
    Definitely true, because it all started to really mess up after computers!

    Tourism victory is rarely my go to VC, so I mostly ignore that lense. I want to apologise everyone who may also be mistaken by my posts.
    Thanks for the explanation!

    Still it looks like plantations/pastures near forest / wonder give tourism, but I am too lasy to count it now to confirm :)

    Again huge thanks to you!

    And one more question:
    Do:
    - colossal heads
    - ethipian church
    get another 2 tourism from earthgoddess?
     
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  4. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    No.
     
  5. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    It is fairly more complex than that: Culture from tile Appeal can gives Tourism, as long it has a Pasture or a Plantation on it. Oddly specific, really weird but true. We might have other exception, but I know that Lumber Mills, Mines, Camps and Oil Wells do not work.

    Therefore:
    • Rainforest tiles with Chichen Itza can give Tourism if the tiles are improved by a Plantation.
    • Tundra tiles with St Basil's Cathedral can give Tourism if the tiles are improved by a Pasture / Plantation.
    • All Culture from Bull Moose ability can give Tourism if the tiles are improved by a Pasture / Plantation.
    I guess there is some weird things going on, because the only two Pantheons that give Culture are "God of the Open Sky" or "Goddess of Festivals", that work on Pastures and Plantations.

    Coffee is even more weird: it has Culture but a Coffee's Plantation does not have Tourism from the Culture of the Coffee. But with Goddess of Festivals / Bull Mouse ability, it can have Tourism equal to Culture minus 1.
     
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  6. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Do you have to work these to get the tourism?
     
  7. kryat

    kryat King

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    I can confirm later, but I believe that I observed that natively culture-enhancing improvements (Batey at least, probably Moai statues as well) also get their culture stacked with Bull Moose before being turned into tourism.
     
  8. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    I disagree. Carl also disagrees. Can you back up your answer?

    Just to verify, I loaded up an Ethiopia save where I took Earth Goddess. This save is one turn before winning, so I have Computers and Environmentalism for +50% Tourism generated. I also have Cristo.

    When I mouse over a Seaside Resort with 6 Gold, I get 18 Tourism (6 * 1.5 * 2). When I mouse over a National Park with appeal of 21, I get 31 Tourism (21 * 1.5). All good, right?

    When I mouse over a Church with 6 Faith, I get 9 Tourism (6 * 1.5). But, 2 Faith out of 6 is coming from Earth Goddess. That Faith is clearly being added to the Tourism. Otherwise, the Tourism generated should be (6 - 2) * 1.5 = 6.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  9. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    I blame lousy Firaxis programmer about this. I think it was probably like

    - (Designer) "Let's add tourism on culture improvement.".
    - (QA) "How about pantheon pasture and plantations?"
    - "Yes only when they provide culture"

    (And thus programmer added a poorly stated "if" to the program, "if pasture and plantations provide culture then it gives tourism", and after QA pointed out problem with Coffee they excluded it in another "if".)

    How about Silk? Does anyone know? I believe providing tourism equal to culture minus 1 is the intended behavior prior to existence of BM Teddy, as that's the amount of culture provided by improvement. (So pasture and plantations with the right pantheon only provide 1 culture.) But now it's buggy for BM Teddy.

    How about a Silk plantation of BM Teddy with Goddess of Festival on a breathtaking Tundra tile next to a woods tile in a city with St Basil's Cathedral? How many tourism does it provide? It provide 5 culture, but does it give 1 or 3 or 5 in tourism?

    Cannot answer this but it seems like @Kwami tested.

    Meanwhile in my last game Petra stacked with a desert seaside resort so that 9-appeal tile provides 11 gold. I just loaded the save to check, the base amount of tourism it provides is 9. (9 * 2 * 1.25 = 22.5, so 22 from the tool tip. Not 11 * 2 = 22)

    upload_2020-8-10_6-40-57.png
     
  10. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    IIRC the tourism from tile improvement comes from the culture/faith the tile improvement provides, and does not take into consideration the base yield of the tile and resource.
     
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  11. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I actually misunderstood the question - I thought @enKage was asking whether Earth Goddess itself added the Tourism, rather than Rock-Hewn Churches being Tourism-yielding and based off the Faith. You are quite correct that Rock-Hewn Churches will add the Faith from Earth Goddesses. The bonus from Natural Wonders such as Delicate Arch also gets applied, interestingly (at least it does for Delicate Arch; I assume it therefore works the same for the others).
     
  12. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    So is the correct takeaway this?

    - When Culture converts to Tourism, if the tile is improved by a Plantation or Pasture, that Culture counts for Tourism excepting native Culture from a resource (ie Coffee/Silk). This is most relevant to Bull Moose Teddy but to any Civ with a Plantation/Pasture that has added Culture from, say, a Natural Wonder, as well as Pantheons.

    - In the rarer cases where Faith converts to Tourism, such as Ethiopian Rock Churches or Colossal Heads, the same method applies. Namely, Faith from Earth Goddess will also apply for Tourism if the tile is improved by a Church or a Head, as will any Faith from an adjacent Natural Wonder.

    - BM Teddy National Parks are an exception as they do not count as Tile Improvements so the Culture on the park tiles does not increase Tourism.


    It's hard to imagine any of this was intentional programming.

    In an even further fringe case, I'd imagine a Head or a Church on volcanic soil, with Fire Goddess, would convert the +2 faith from Goddess into Tourism.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  13. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    Man does this thread SO proves that tourism is a complete mess of a whack-a-mole to understand !!! It's completely unfathomable to me how complicated this all is to understand !
     
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  14. zhugejingqi

    zhugejingqi Chieftain

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    Similar things are all over the game. For example, Mount Everest can sometimes provide a bonus to colleges, and sometimes it can't. The same thing happened in the visuwi volcano, Danxia Zhangye.
     
  15. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Simple, you just do your best to accumulate tourisms. If you have that quick enough you win at 700 - 1000 tourism. If you are slow you win at 2000 tourism. For people who don't want to pay attention to details it's basically that xD. (Late game for culture is so boring I won't have any problem with people who claim themselves a victory once they get to that amount of tourism without finishing it.)

    I think most of the NW are not counted as mountain, however I've seen one where Pamukkale is, for some reason (so each tile of that provide +3 to college). I think the problem is maybe some NW can overlay with one or two mountain and players cannot see it. There are posts where Chocolate Hills contain a volcano in one of its tiles.

    I believe so (about your take away). But I think National Parks are never counted as tile improvements. I believe a National Park in a Brazilian Chichen Itza city or a Tundra National Park in a St. Basil's Cathedral city won't get any extra tourism from culture either. The culture is there anyway (prior to the creation of National Park.)
     
  16. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    I'm not an expert at CV, but... I believe that your statement is only true under certain game setups... like small/average map... I ALWAYS play on huge maps, and believe me, I've often had over 2000 tourism that didn't lead to CV. CV is very hard to get on Huge maps at immortal/diety, compared to the other victory conditions. Of course, that may just be because of the way I naturally play..
     
  17. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    It depends on how fast you get there. I just participated in 6oTM91 (91st Game of the Month for Civ6) which is a T177 deity Greece culture victory. Standard size archipelago map with Eleanor in game. I ended the game with 1130 tourism but just a few turns ago it was under 900. So you can certainly win with a small amount of tourism if you get there early. If late then you need more. Also the number of players matters. If you have 20 players in your huge map then you will need 4000 tourism against one civ to accumulate 1 tourist. Also if AIs are killing each other in your game then it's gonna be harder for you. I never played huge maps so I don't know. Usually I'm on standard or sometimes small/large.
     
  18. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Nah, in fact the more civs the easier it is for you to achieve CV assuming that you earn the same amount of tourists to win. The only plausible explanation for why 2k tourism not earning your CV could be that you earned the tourists far too late such that the culture leader has very high culture to counter act your high tourism.
     
  19. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    I understand your logic, but... What you forget is that with huge and 12 civs, it's almost certain (well somehow for ME it seems to be certain) that you'll have Peter, Kongo, Eleanor and either pericles/gorgo in the game. Somehow at least 3 of these always turn up, and somehow they always seem to be at the other side of the map where it's rather hard to get rid of them (unless you go Cv by Dom)(except for Eleanor which WILL be close and try and turn your cities by loyalty as soon as you time a dark age) or to get rock bands to them.

    EDIT: I will admit that my culture game is usually late though...I,m more of a science and trade routes kind of guy ;-)
     
  20. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Now that the elimination thread is ending, time to play a huge map peaceful culture victory with Catherine/France (Mag), Kristina/Sweden, Menelik/Ethiopia, Pericles/Greece, Peter/Russia, Qin Shi Huang/China, Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM), Wilfrid Laurier/Canada, Cyrus/Persia, Hojo Tokimune/Japan, Kupe/Maori and Cleopatra/Egypt. (Ignored Gorgo/Greece from the top 13 since there's another Greece.)

    I will let you know if I decide to start such a game. Maybe on a shuffle map.
     
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