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clan of embers vs. scorpion clan vs. lizard

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Imuratep, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

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    With the introduction of the scorpion clan I relooked at the Clan of Embers. They seem to be quite ambigous. They are supposed to have cheap early units to rush the opponent, but the only unit cheaper than other units are the goblin scouts, which can be upgraded to wolf riders if you're lucky to find some tundra (which for me seems to contradict the FFH flavor. In general I would also settle them to tundra or in plains, but the get boni for jungle attack, so these are supposed to be there). I think the orcs should in general have more tough units, in the beginning and in the late game (which is certainly true for late game). Orcs (not to mention ogres are more robust and musceled than elves, dwarves and humans.
    Goblins on the other hand are sneaky little pests, something completely different. They like the power of majority or of attacks from behind. The Scorpion clan seems to reflect this quite good, with all of them having poison strength. In general I would separate the different races and create a lizard, a goblin and an orc civilization (and leave them the ogres, which are quite mindless followers, so this is no problem).
    The playable Scorpion Clan Goblins should of course not be stronger than the others by themselves, but as strong as human equivalents when you combine it with poison strength. But to differentiate them out they could get better poisons with certain techs, so all of their units get stronger.
    Lizards have an aspect, that FFH is lacking for me now - they are a mesoamerican style civ. I always wanted to play with improved jungles, like the elven forest style, but a bit more balanced than it was in FF the last time I played it. And with goblins I can understand why they follow the orcs - the power of suppression and the desire to follow a stronger one. But concerning Lizards it seems quite mysterious to me. Perhaps someone experienced in the Clan of Embers Lore could explain it to me?

    Edit: I accidently posted this thread three times. How do I delete the two other threads?
     
  2. rusty217

    rusty217 Veil Fanatic

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    :eek: A triple thread...

    I don't know about more tough units, with the warrens aswell that may be fairly overpowered, having armies that are stronger and twice the size of any other...

    And the Lizardmen were likely their own clan as well at one point and probably joined up with the Embers when Jonas was organizing them into what they are now. They likely joined because they would be persecuted by any other nation but with the Clan they could keep their jungle homes and they would also have protection from outside powers. Or maybe they were just big worshippers of Bhall so joined Jonas because he is a priest of Bhall...
     
  3. Demus

    Demus Chieftain

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    for lizards, try fall further, it features 2 (mazatl and cualli), one builder, one conquest orientated. They've been tweaked quite a bit since they were first intruduced, expecially the mazatl. You could add an orc-only event, triggering upon entry of the scorpion clan fort. Right now it only allows you to recruit the goblins when you're on the tile of the fort. Maibe someone could allow them to build a "scorpion clan house" in their cities, so they can produce the goblins in their cities, not just on the forts?
     
  4. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    well clan/barb lizardmen are pretty different from FF lizardmen ( cualli and mazatl ) imho. the first are pretty much mutated savage humans, while the second are sentient biped lizards ;)

    anyway, I do agree that the clan could benefit from a reworking of its recon line so that it's all goblin based ( I hate that goblins can't upgrade due to lizardman being a different race ) . aside from that, I'm fine with goblins being part of the orcish race, but if they were splitted into a goblin race and orc+ogre race, it would be a lot cooler imho. with goblins being all poisonous and backstabbing and steampunkish and the like ;)
     
  5. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    Can goblins upgrade to wolf riders once you research the tech? I'll confess I haven't played that civ very much, despite my over liking of it.
     
  6. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle Chieftain

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    Yes they should.... Oddly wolfriders could also upgrade to Ogres at least in one of my games and according to the pedia. Now thats an odd corss-species jump...
     
  7. heisenberg

    heisenberg Lost in Erebus

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    The orcs do have some decent late-game tough units--their "calvary" line of melee ogres. Their replacements for horse archers are slightly slower str 8 ogres, 13/11 ogre warchiefs, and 13/17 stoneskin ogres. Much tougher than their replacements though slower with 2 movement rate. Since these are considered "melee" though on the calvary line, you can pick up CR III promos to make them real city busters instead of those flanking promos for withdrawal. ;)
    That said, their early units do lack that kind of "muscle" their late game ogres do.
     
  8. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    The Ogres, by the way, are melee type units, meaning they can get March, which is a pretty big upgrade from the equivalent cavalry. And since they start with movement greater than 1, they can get blitz. A delicious high end XP part of the game.
     
  9. heisenberg

    heisenberg Lost in Erebus

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    Yep i simply love the ogres--end up usually going down the metal/calvary line for the clan.
    One little iffy thing about those stoneskin ogres though... their stoneskin lasts a grand total of one fight--not really a good reason to call them stoneskin ogres right? lol~ Its like giving them a token promo just to justify their namesake... I know they are already kinda strong but I was just wondering if it would be possible to like kinda replace that stoneskin everytime their HP hits full or something, so they are still killable, but that "stoneskin" bit of their name would make a significant difference. Perhaps lower their defense a bit to balance it out? :lol: just a lil' suggestion off the top of my head (^.^)b
     
  10. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    agreed that it would be awesome to have the stoneskin ogres have permanent stoneskin balanced out by a decrease in "default" stats ( strength ) . btw, it's weird that you research techs like stirrups and armored cavalry to field ogres. couldn't they be blocked from the mounted line instead and get a unique branch of techs specific to them?
     
  11. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

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    Concerning Ogres I also think the mounted unit path doesn't fit to them and I would support a new tech line for them. The best fitting techs for me would be animal handling and animal mastery, because Ogres are more animal/monsters than intelligent creatures. The problem would of course be that they would share a technique with the lizard rangers, but that's why I'm saying Clan of Embers just should be a Orc-Ogre civilization. The Ogres would in this case not be the animal domesticators (like the rangers of other civilizations) but the domesticated animals...

    Concerning goblins, the wolf riding goblins is just too cool so i would miss them if we cut the whole mounted path of a combined civ. This would be the advantage of separating the Orcs+Ogres from the Goblins: Give the Goblins no melee-path and the Orcs-Ogres no mounted path and you have them differentiated very good. The Goblins could have very fast mounted units (perhaps a power 3 rider with 4 movements), that are a bit weaker than the avarage. In addition you could support the coward flavor of Goblins by giving their units a big chance of withdrawing from combat or even by linking 15% withdrawal to a new created goblin race promotion. Their hero could be oriented at Squee from Magic the Gathering. A goblin that somehow managed to get out of every situation and so often seemed to be death and nevertheless survived that he could be considered to be immortal :D. The Goblin palace could give you 10 free units, because goblins are friends of the majority and by this you could support this flavor.
     
  12. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I support moving ogres to the melee line ( or recon ), and give the clan a mounted line that uses wolves and other mean carnivores as mounts instead of horses ( warg riders, bear riders, etc. ) ;)
     
  13. heisenberg

    heisenberg Lost in Erebus

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    Yea that and oddities like having to go archery before building ogres. I suppose its just a generic tech-line problem as of now.
     
  14. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    Well, no, it WAS giving them a token promo to justify their namesake. ;) iirc, the stoneskin ogre was in prior to the spell, and they got it because it fit.

    I would prefer an art fix. Have little goblins riding on their backs directing them. Also, then they could have the upgrades back.
     
  15. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    well but then it would feel really weird to need horses to build them, wouldn't it?
     
  16. Keeper_GFA

    Keeper_GFA Chieftain

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    You gotta feed them somehow. :eek:
     
  17. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    then why horses and not cows, sheeps or pigs? :p
     
  18. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    You, uh, don't need horses to build ogres.
     
  19. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I'm not talking about ogres, I'm talking about hipotetical warg riders and bear riders ( wargs are huge wolves ) ;)
     
  20. El_Duderino

    El_Duderino Chieftain

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    perhaps these hypothetical wargs and bears are really picky eaters
     

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