Clash of War(Peace)mongers on Deity - BTS

[Johan^^]

Funny game so far. I´ve started my own game, though not reached the AD yet. Though this is not why im posting. I want to talk a bit about the "underlying" relationships in this game. I´ve attached a picture illustration the starting relationships a game start.



As far as i remember, the rule of this chart is, that for each row number above four, you get 1 negative hidden moddifier. So calc. example:

Us Frederik (8) and Hannibal (2) the base attitude is:
-(8-4-2) = -2 - 2* = -4

*Warmonger attitude.

Matchup on our continent:
Khemer gay (row=2, 1 warmonger), Boudica(row=1, 2 warmonger) and Hannibal(row=2, 2 warmonger). and us Frederik (row=2, 0 warmonger)

This effectively gives: hannibal -4 ; Boudica -5 ; khemer - 3. That is some serius negative moddifiers to start with. I dont know how deity effects these underlying moddifiers. Though if any effect, it is likely to be even worse.

The hole "problem" with this continent matchup is, that the AI´s are from row 1 and 2, thus not likely to declear war on each other and diffinetly not with only 1 religion on the continent.


On the other continent it is very likely that Mensa(row 9, rest row 2) is a war with the other guys unless he managed to pull some nice moddifiers from religion etc, bribing someone on to his side.

 

[VirusMonster]

Rigging games HOF-handholding-cheater style is not my style. I play real Deity.

The Byz guide was done on 3.0 up to 1400AD. I'll finish it on 3.13.

This new patch is very buggy. The resource thing sure held my game. Also, the deity AIs seem more likely to support large (40-60 unit) SoDs. This is a relapse back to Warlords times when I've had to destroy SoDs of 200 in the modern age. The good thing about so much military is deity is challenging once again, the bad thing is we're playing Fred, no early UU, no combat trait.

Ok if you are so good, I want to see you beating it so I can learn from you =)

Also if you call HOF rules cheating, then why don't you try a 1v1 on a standart map at Deity? If your tactic is going to depend on the AI hitting each other, you might as well start doing it from the very start with maximum number AI possible for the map. You bribe the AI anyhow.

 

[VirusMonster]

Wow! Settled on plains gold, you're crazy!
If i didn't know better I'd think it was the deity AI playing in your place.
Really, really looking forward to seeing how that plays out for you.

And as to the points brought up by Virusmonster I agree with Obsolete and Unconquered Sun. I/We aren't looking for some diploma about beating a (rigged) deity game, it's suppose to be the real thing - the real difficulty. If this means losing then so be it.

Common you got BW and IW from the hut, how is that not rigged =) What is the the probability of this happening?

I would not call playing vs 10 opponents rigged, I would call it a fair competition.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Common you got BW and IW from the hut, how is that not rigged =) What is the the probability of this happening?

I would not call playing vs 10 opponents rigged, I would call it a fair competition.

That was my first try, but got killed 300AD.

In my current attemp I did not get IW from hut. And poping a tech is not exactly "rigged".

 

[Rusten]

Was mostly aiming at the regenerate until 2 gold hills and no barbarians. Besides, only 1 of us got IW from that hut, and that game got restarted already.
Sorry if I was offensive but I didn't mean to or want to at this point start a flamewar. It's just that the game would lose its meaning to me if i tweaked settings in my own favour like that. There's a difference in getting a positive event unknowingly than setting it up for yourself. Anyway, we shouldn't be talking about this here though, rather a different thread.

 

[VirusMonster]

That was my first try, but got killed 300AD.

In my current attemp I did not get IW from hut. And poping a tech is not exactly "rigged".

I can understand why you don't like my tactics and you don't have to play with Ceaser or regenerate the start, but at least take the one playing vs 10 opponents more seriously. You just give less land to the AI to abuse their bonuses.

It might not work always, because land will be scarce, but when you can settle 3 initial cities, you have a chance of being the largest empire early on.

Give it a thought, I also want you guys to beat Deity. I could not so far =)

 

[ABigCivFan]

Funny game so far. I´ve started my own game, though not reached the AD yet. Though this is not why im posting. I want to talk a bit about the "underlying" relationships in this game. I´ve attached a picture illustration the starting relationships a game start.

As far as i remember, the rule of this chart is, that for each row number above four, you get 1 negative hidden moddifier. So calc. example:

Us Frederik (8) and Hannibal (2) the base attitude is:
-(8-4-2) = -2 - 2* = -4

*Warmonger attitude.

Matchup on our continent:
Khemer gay (row=2, 1 warmonger), Boudica(row=1, 2 warmonger) and Hannibal(row=2, 2 warmonger). and us Frederik (row=2, 0 warmonger)

This effectively gives: hannibal -4 ; Boudica -5 ; khemer - 3. That is some serius negative moddifiers to start with. I dont know how deity effects these underlying moddifiers. Though if any effect, it is likely to be even worse.

The hole "problem" with this continent matchup is, that the AI´s are from row 1 and 2, thus not likely to declear war on each other and diffinetly not with only 1 religion on the continent.


On the other continent it is very likely that Mensa(row 9, rest row 2) is a war with the other guys unless he managed to pull some nice moddifiers from religion etc, bribing someone on to his side.

Very in-depth and interesting analysis. That is why we need to do everything we can to up the relationships includeing gifting, tribute, one-sided tech trades, religion, OB and etc.

Interesting that Boudica had DOWed on Kehmer guy 2 times before 600AD, as my scout watched the Kehmer guy killing Boudica, I quickly gave Feudalism to Boudica for 120 gold. This gave me a -1 pt with Kehmer guy for "trading with his worst enemy". Do not give her for free cause it will cause a bigger penalty with Kehmer guy(up to -3).

But the next turn my scout saw upgraded/whipped longbows in Boudica's border city, it was well worth it. The Khemer guy was getting too strong, need to help Boudica staying alive to fight him later while i get busy with Hannibal.




relations at 600AD:

Boudica +13 toward me - Friendly
Kehmer +19 toward me - Friendly
Hannibal +8 toward me - Pleased

One more thing: when are you planning on declaring war on Hannibal? Which unit choice as defenders/attackers? Unless you're just trying to hold on for the UB/UU and having that city as a back-up in case he won't let you in peace until then.

I plan to just have strong defense for now until our UU and UB online. After I have a sizable Panzers will start war. Plan is taking that Carth city surround by me at turn 1 of war to connect my Gold hill strong hold to my my core cities, rushing reinforcements into it and try defensive kill the bulk of Hannibal offensive units there.

Once AI's offensive units are killed, the war is already won.

 

[Johan^^]

I plan to just have strong defense for now until our UU and UB online. After I have a sizable Panzers will start war. Plan is taking that Carth city surround by me at turn 1 of war to connect my Gold hill strong hold to my my core cities, rushing reinforcements into it and try defensive kill the bulk of Hannibal offensive units there.

Once AI's offensive units are killed, the war is already won.

I´ve used a similar strategy many times and it is very effective, even more if you manage to build the great wall, since this will give twice as many GG-points

I find the great wall almost a must on immortal / deity games. The benefits are simply to big to miss out on.

 

[Johan^^]

relations at 600AD:

Boudica +13 toward me - Friendly
Kehmer +19 toward me - Friendly
Hannibal +8 toward me - Pleased

This is pretty nice "handling" of the AI i must say. I´m struggling to please em all in my game.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I´ve used a similar strategy many times and it is very effective, even more if you manage to build the great wall, since this will give twice as many GG-points

I find the great wall almost a must on immortal / deity games. The benefits are simply to big to miss out on.

Totally agree, GW is my favorite wonder playing at this level. No barbs and 100% GG pts on defense are just immense.

Boudica claimed that prize in my current game. She will end up many settled GGs in her capital

 

[obsolete]

The hole "problem" with this continent matchup is, that the AI´s are from row 1 and 2, thus not likely to declear war on each other and diffinetly not with only 1 religion on the continent.

If you want, I can show you games where column 1 & 2 leaders were put on a continent and all sharing the ONLY religion that was sprung there. Yet they still went off warring and vassaling each other.

 

[Johan^^]

If you want, I can show you games where column 1 & 2 leaders were put on a continent and all sharing the ONLY religion that was sprung there. Yet they still went off warring and vassaling each other.

I´m not saying its not going to happen, just that the probablity is lower than with a mix of leaders from different rows. If the analysis should be done even better one should go to this link ** and compare the different personalities of the AI along with the analysis I did.

Another reason i posted it, was for people that didnt know about these underlying modifiers, could know. I have often been able to controle the early game alot better, when analysing the opponents when i´ve met all on my continent. I.e. if you want two of your rivals to go to war and you know how their base peaceweight is, it is easier to manipulate them into war if you have the right options at the time.

**http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5746414&postcount=16

 

[ABigCivFan]

I can understand why you don't like my tactics and you don't have to play with Ceaser or regenerate the start, but at least take the one playing vs 10 opponents more seriously. You just give less land to the AI to abuse their bonuses.

It might not work always, because land will be scarce, but when you can settle 3 initial cities, you have a chance of being the largest empire early on.

Give it a thought, I also want you guys to beat Deity. I could not so far =)

Yes, when we finish this one, I am thinking throw in some culture/peace mongers like Hatty and Gandhi. So we might have 8 AIs and 1 human. As for human, maybe one of the Chinese leaders.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I might try Zara under same settings. He's got creative which is paramount for close settling on deity, with the Stele on top of it, plus fast libraries for GS.

Also, the Oromo Warrior seems like the perfect unit to defend with against huge AI stacks. At 5 xp Oromo is eligible for Drill IV: devastating when fortified in hill cities giving high defense odds. Plus nigh immune to collateral. Plus easily draftable at Drill III.

 

[Dirk1302]

Ok if you are so good, I want to see you beating it so I can learn from you =)

Also if you call HOF rules cheating, then why don't you try a 1v1 on a standart map at Deity? If your tactic is going to depend on the AI hitting each other, you might as well start doing it from the very start with maximum number AI possible for the map. You bribe the AI anyhow.

He did that already look for Justinian of the deities thread , pretty recent. Great read.

 

[ABigCivFan]

One more thing: when are you planning on declaring war on Hannibal? Which unit choice as defenders/attackers? Unless you're just trying to hold on for the UB/UU and having that city as a back-up in case he won't let you in peace until then.

Hannibal has 2 huge SOD stationed near our border, good and bad.

Good: If he stays pleased and not attack, I will be able to easily decimate these SODs and make things very promising.

Bad: If he back-stabs, It will really set me back.

These units also is slowing down his economy allowing us having a slight tech lead at the moment. It is unlikely he will be able to mass upgrade all these guys, so they will become our shooting targets.


I am thinking actually the best timing for first war against Hannibal will be right after Factory/Rifle/Artillary on line. If I can pre-build some Cannons/Rifle/Infan and upgrade to ARty ASAP, I will likely facing large number of obsolete units on offense, on defense, I will have decent stack of Infantry against inferior but numerous stacks.

Just built NE and will try grow and save a GM for cash to fund mass upgrade.

Also later a GG Infantry defender (CG3+Leadership+Garrila+Drill) should be awesome.

I might try Zara under same settings. He's got creative which is paramount for close settling on deity, with the Stele on top of it, plus fast libraries for GS.

Also, the Oromo Warrior seems like the perfect unit to defend with against huge AI stacks. At 5 xp Oromo is eligible for Drill IV: devastating when fortified in hill cities giving high defense odds. Plus nigh immune to collateral. Plus easily draftable at Drill III.

That sounds cool. I d like to try some new BTS leaders too.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

It is unlikely he will be able to mass upgrade all these guys, so they will become our shooting targets.

That bugs me. Blake reduced the AI military size when BtS was coded for only 50% discount on deity upgrades (compare to 5% on Warlords). New 3.13 AIs with SoDs of 50ish units, 10-20 cities with 3-4 defenders each, that's about 10k for upgrading from one age to another, 5k with the deity BtS discount. But 5k is still a lot especially when deities research at Noble costs...

 

[ABigCivFan]

Latest development:

1040AD: Met the folks from the other conti, Catherine is the bully obviously, already took Mesa vassle, and soon to attack HC. Thanks to my aggressive tech trading our conti seems more like the "Tech Club" we were several techs ahead them.


I had a lot of gold from a GM mission and trades like this: I partially research a tech then trade for it for cash price, the beaker to gold conversion is fantastic.




1290AD: Boudica and Hannibal have defensive Pact, And I saw an opportunity to bribe the Khmer guy to attack Boudia thus drag Hannibal into war as well.





Paid a heavy price.





1360AD: Looks like the Khmer guy is no push over..




1410AD: Then think again... can someone give us a head count in that stack (I counted 84 units)




Needless to say, that city fell the next turn.


look at the mini map, Hannibal had too much land to spam his cottages, once he gets Free Speech, Printing Press, his science took off like a rocket. The human just can not allow an AI get this much land on Deity.

He will probably soon take Khmer guy vassle...

 

[Rusten]

haha, I've been afraid to play on with my own game because I know the exact same thing is happening. If you look at the gnp (gold) chart I posted on page 3 you'll see Hannibal having an increase of maybe 500% in almost no time at all because of these techs. It's of course easier to tell what would be the better move in twenty-twenty hindsight, but wouldn't it be better to bribe that war a couple of turns later when you could jump on Hannibal yourself? ;/

Edit: Time to stop avoiding the inevitable, will play some more rounds and hope for a miracle.

 

[Rusten]

Made it to Rifling and did some great tech trading at the same time with Boudica and Catherine. Part-researched constitution for liberalism with Cathy, economics for liberalism with Boudica and Rifling for scientific method with Boudica. Cutting Hannibal out of the loop as best as I can and it's a great success. As of 1320 AD the tech situation is starting to even out with Hannibal's lead decreasing. Boudica's power rating is starting to climb as well due to rifling so she'll be a good contender if I can force her vs Hannibal later.
What I love the most about a FE/SE/HE mix is the huge flexibility of science. Right now I'm getting about 500 science beakers without any cities producing research, but if I wanted to I could boost that number by several hundred using city production. The good thing about this is that I can "rush" a tech to maximise my trading options and get as much for it as possible (kinda like the well-known lightbulb). and afterwards I can switch to mass produce a huge amount of military units in no time. A CE is of course the big thing in terms of commerce and a strong economy no doubt, but it's not the only thing that works - and flexibility is my favourite ability in this game. I'm also closing in on state property where this works even better. We've got a lot of rivers, so I'm expecting some neat-o cities with watermills and leevees.



A little earlier this happens.



Not that big of a problem, I doubt Hannibal has the manpower to take out a cross-contintental Cathy, but just to be on the safe side I decide to teach Cathy the obvious.



Things are starting to look better no doubt, although Hannibal is still very strong Boudica and I are pulling each other up in terms of tech.