Class attitude

[Sidhe]

@others: Lets clarify. Me saying that working hard is a conservative value (it is) isnt implying that the inverse is also true: that liberals dont work hard. Of course (some) liberals work hard as well. But, hard work is conservative value, but I am not saying it is SOLELY a conservative value.....which apparently some of you think that is my meaning. Its not.

Ok I'm neither interested in who posted this, why he posted it or what that makes x. But I am interested in the implications of this suggestion, whether that was entirely meant or not you can draw the conclusion that perhaps conservatives are per capita more hard working or believe more strongly in the idea of hard work as a means to guarantee success, or if not guarantee make the outcome more likely?

So my question is this and let's not take too much time pulling apart what was meant by the quote above, only that it's a means to an end for this question.

• Do you think certain groups are more lazy than others? For example the liberals, the fascists, the communists. Or even economic groups, the poor, the middle classes, the top earners and the abjectly wealthy? Or are these truths held to be self evident across the class and economic divides? Is the reason why people are poor because they don't have the right values? Or are their other more complicated reasons?

 

[Chazumi]

Poor people in general are lazy for one reason or another.

 

[nonconformist]

If "liberals" are the lazy ones, explain why the majority of the miners who were left unemployed in the 80s voted liberal and labour while the people who made them unemployed were all privileged Conservative Tory tossers who inherited everything from their aristocratric parents.
Bastards.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Having certain groups voting one way during an election doesn't make the group necessarily "liberal." Those miners could still be conservative minded, but they just voted "liberal" because of the circumstances behind that one election. Or at least I think so.. UK politics aren't my forte.

When discussing the OP, fallacies and generalizations are likely going to be rampant here. If I were going to determine whether certain groups were lazier or harder working than other groups in whatever field, I would need extensive experiences with groups. And admittedly, I just don't have the right creditionals to discuss the issue outside of my personal opinion. Although I have heard some stories from my brother that his engineering firm bosses are dissuaded from hiring African Americans because of their near consistently low performance and comparatively weak work ethic compared to the Whites and the Asians (somewhere in New Jersey).

The only field I know about is middle income family's attitude towards education in state colleges. Children from immigrant families (Polish, Indian, Asian) generally work harder than 'American' groups (white and black) from the middle income and lower income brackets. But only generally, I have come across a few noteworthy exceptions on both sides. Almost all of those I know who work harder in those colleges are consistently liberal and those groups that perform less are consistently conservative.

 

[Sidhe]

Poor people in general are lazy for one reason or another.

That's not an argument that's a statement of belief. Which means to be honest it's barely worth acknowledging. However since that's the best we've got so far I'll at least point out that making statements based solely on you beliefs, isn't really what I'm looking for and is in itself intellectually lazy. I didn't ask if conservatives/fascists? Were intellectually lazy believe it or not.

Noncon: I don't think personally laziness or lack of it is an excuse for your political motivation I think there's a cause and effect that is far more complicated than the usual commentator would like to admit. Correlation and causation are inherently incredibly complex here.

EDIT for crosspost: thanks Quo Vadis that's more what I'm looking for. And yes cultural values although not politically correct, do mean that certain cultures tend to have a lower standard work ethic and some higher, ie people say the Mexicans and the Chinese differ in their work ethics, stereotype or not there is somewhere a grain of truth. The Germans are lauded for their work ethic, the English are amongst the hardest working in Europe (hours worked and production output) but are complained at about their work ethic, which is said to be lacking. This demonstrates the difference between the perception and the reality. What an Englishman says about work may not be what he does or what he believes.

 

[MobBoss]

The quote was my quote. And yes, I think certain groups are more lazy than others, just like certain groups are more liberal or conservative. Poor people tend to be more liberal primarily as they see social programs as a requirement/entitlement. Lefties like those programs, conservatives dont.

I tend to think those that live off of welfare or on the dole for extended periods of time, with little or no effort to get off government subsidy are lazy. They often find it hard to break off the governments teat, when the money comes rolling in for nothing.

 

[nonconformist]

Because, of course, living off welfare, you can live comfortably. It's not like they give you just about enough to get by.
I hate seeing the frikking unemployerd driving past me in their Bentleys, with their hos, snorting their coke and ligting cigarettres with £50 bills.

Oh wait, no they don't. Maybe if you feel so slighted then the problem isn't the welfare state, it's thje American welfare state.
Maybe you should take a leaf out of Europe's book.

 

[Sidhe]

Believe it or not I didn't quote it because MB said it, I quoted it because to some extent I agree with it but with some reservations. But the point was to ask are there lazy people in any walk of life, for example the rich debutante who has spent their whole life living off the milk of their fathers labours and intends to go on doing so without doing a days work ever. The middle class dilettante that can't nor has any need to settle on a career as he's already financially capable, and so spends his life lazing around, lying about his career asperations to keep his father happy. The ex working joe, who found a gravy train who has spent most of his life coasting form one hand out to another and sees no need to try any more. The question is is it epidemic or is it endemic, and is it statistically valid to say that one class or one economic class or whatever is more or less lazy than another, is is such a pattern a part of human nature, more than a cause for the poor or the rich or the fat cat or the Mexican or whatever. Are the lazy equally represented? Is the idea that it's the cause of poverty merely an excuse for the intellectually lazy to cling to? Or not?

 

[MobBoss]

Because, of course, living off welfare, you can live comfortably.

Not having to work is rather comfortable I suppose.

It's not like they give you just about enough to get by.

I have seen people on welfare with plasma tvs and satellite cable, and a decent car.

I hate seeing the frikking unemployerd driving past me in their Bentleys, with their hos, snorting their coke and ligting cigarettres with £50 bills.

In some cases, I dont think that is far from the truth.

Oh wait, no they don't. Maybe if you feel so slighted then the problem isn't the welfare state, it's thje American welfare state.
Maybe you should take a leaf out of Europe's book.

The hell with europes book. If I wanted that I would move to europe, and I dont plan on that anytime soon.

 

[Cato the Elder]

Work ethic and political view are completely unrelated. You can say there are leftists who are so just so they can live off society, but so are there rightists who want low taxes so they can keep all the money they inherited and live a luxurious lifestyle without doing anything for it.

Work ethic and class once again, aren't related either. There are very labourious and very lazy people in all classes of society.

And to say hard work is a conservative value is just stupid.

 

[holy king]

 

[Syterion]

Poor people in general are lazy for one reason or another.

That was a pretty lazy response. You must be poor or something.

I'd respond to this myself, but I'm just too liberal to bother with that kind of work today.

 

[nonconformist]

Not having to work is rather comfortable I suppose.



I have seen people on welfare with plasma tvs and satellite cable, and a decent car.



In some cases, I dont think that is far from the truth.



The hell with europes book. If I wanted that I would move to europe, and I dont plan on that anytime soon.

Ever lived on welfare?

 

[nonconformist]

Poor people in general are lazy for one reason or another.

Jesus was poor, was he lazy?

 

[nonconformist]

I see that, and raise you:

 

[Ansar]

@holy king:

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I did Company Economics, with lots of right-winged people. A lot of those were stuck up arrogant kids who leeched of their parents. I'd say that half of them never had to have a summertime job to get the money together for schoolbooks. A lot of them didn't even know the rent for their cozy appartment since daddy picked up the bills. And they also looked down on poor people as being lazy. This was the future of our corperate big shots.



Me, being the typical left wing hippy deadbeat in their eyes had to pay for my books and rent. I had weekend jobs and evening jobs. They sniffed at me when I wasn't able to pony up 500 guilders (250 dollars back then) for a schooltrip to Prague. "It's just 500 guilders man, what's the big deal? It's just a little less partying". The big deal was that I had to work for that money and it went straight to books, food and rent you rich bastard dickhead.

But lets drop the stereotypes allright? I am pretty effing sure that most people who reached the top did so by hard work. Just as I'm as effing sure that most people who are unemployed are miserable and acking to get to work. I was unemployed myself for 6 months, but I was young and had had an education. My only problem during that time was deciding what I want to do next. But during that time I spoke to people who were willing to do any kind of job. The trouble was, they usualy were to old for the simple jobs, since an employer doesn't have to pay an 18 year old as much as a 44 year old parent. And they weren't educated enough for other jobs, or young and not enough experience.

Because all companies are looking for a 30 year old single employee with 15 years of experience.

So don't start this with me, because it's absolutely bonkers.

 

[kulade]

As a rule of thumb, the people who complain the most about lazy people are usually the laziest, in my experience.

 

[Cutlass]

There is no relationship. Some of the poorest people are the hardest working. They just have no skills or opportunities. The wealthy have some very hard workers, but also a lot of parasites. The political views people hold doesn't really affect that. People of all politics can be discouraged from work effort by circumstances.

 

[Dubai Vol]

Ah, yes, liberals are lazy.

I started paying taxes at 14. I had jobs before that, but it wasn't legal to hire under-14 so I was paid under the table. Starting at 14 I was a busboy, a janitor, a dishwasher, a pump jockey, a grease monkey. I always had a job, and usually the hours I worked were not strictly legal for someone my age. In bed at midnight and up for school at 6 was routine in high school, and on weekends I worked until 2 AM before I was old enough to drive.

My family was so poor I had to drop out of high school and go to work full time to put food on the table. I worked the menial jobs I was qualified for until I was old enough to join the army. I got cheated by my recruiter and couldn't afford to get out and go to college until I was 27.

In college I worked as many as 4 jobs at once and took full-time course loads and graduated in under 4 years with a degree in mechanical engineering summa cum laude at age 31.

I'm a liberal. Good thing i'm so lazy.

Why am I a liberal? Under any rational system, a person with the ability that I have would be educated and given the opportunity to contribute to society from the beginning of his career. Instead, because I could not afford to go to college, I spent a decade working menial jobs, including the jobs I had in the army, where I was promoted from buck private to sergeant in 30 months, almost as fast as it is possible to do so. When i left the army I had enough rank to stay in for 20 years and retire with a pension if I wanted to, but that would have been an egregious waste of my abilities.

The American system does not take advantage of ability. It rewards people who are lucky enough to be born to rich parents, first and foremost.

Make college placement strictly by test scores. The best students go to Harvard, MIT, etc, regardless of ability to pay. Fund university departments and allocate slots based on the need for people with a given degree. I mean, please, how many sociology and psychology majors can the job market absorb? What a waste. The market-driven model (teach the students what they will pay to learn) is clearly a disaster.

Now I will brag: Princeton asked me to attend. I had to say "sorry, can't afford it." I didn't call them, they called me. What a waste.

So I took my degree and left the states, and haven't payed taxes in umpteen years, because the system is rubbish and I refuse to support it. But you can bet I will be drawing the social security and medicare bennies I earned, and you will pay for me to get them. Fark you, conservatives.