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Climb the Ladder II: Joao II - Noble

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dankok8, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Continents - Temperate - Medium sea level - Standard size map - Normal Speed - Noble Difficulty. Choose Religions is ON, everything else default.

    Since we all already saw Alex pretty well thanks to JT, I figured I'd better pick a new leader. Joao II should be fun. I figure we should go for an intense REX and block out our neighbors since this is a continent map followed by a demonstration of how to fix the economy after such a disaster.

    Our leader:



    UU:



    UB:



    I'm not a big fan of UU or UB, but I like the traits. Cheap workers AND settlers coupled with cheap granaries means rapid vertical and horizontal growth. The health bonus from expansive helps late. Land is power!!

    The Start: (EDIT)

     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    IMO the UB is kind of iffy, while the UU is either very average or spectacular depending on map (as it's unlikely you'll be settling much otherwise astro-onlyoffshore land peacefully in this one, probably not useful).

    Traits are good. The one constraint is :) though. In order to survive massive REX you'll want more than just pop 4-5 cities and you'll want that cap up FAST. We'll see if the map cooperates.
     
  3. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Maybe 1W. Don't waste the flood plain
     
  4. vixafox

    vixafox Chieftain

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    Only one visible resource amongst a forest of trees. That means there should be something else (hopefully food) hidden in the fog to the North. Perhaps you could move the warrior either NE or NW onto one of the hills and post another save with a little more of the map revealed. This would help guide the discussion on where to settle. For my part, I would be less keen on settling 1W if the two visible hills were the only major sources of hammers in the BFC.
     
  5. Ai Shizuka

    Ai Shizuka Chieftain

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    Could you post a save? I'd like to play this one, if you don't mind.
     
  6. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Ok, I moved the warrior NW (could very well have been NE). More forest .. Bronze Working is a priority.



    The save before the warrior was moved is attached.
     
  7. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    A quick squint suggests that all five tiles in the east are treed, so I would roll the die to the plains hill. You still have one more warrior move before you must commit (and in fact you can return the settler to this position without losing a second turn founding the city). You convert a plains hill to a floodplain, and get the extra production bonus too.
     
  8. Sian

    Sian Chieftain

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    looks like a protentially nasty buroucracy captial ... a good amount of rivers :)
     
  9. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    4000-3160BC

    This was a short round because I think there are a few discussion points here. The next rounds will be faster I promise.

    Either way, I settled in place because tiles even further west were still forested. There is something north though...



    Alright, we can eat bread. ..and something just out of the BFC to the east...



    I figure I'd start the game with Agriculture so I can farm that wheat (since we don't start with Hunting or Agri, we are 2 techs away from Animal Husbandry for pasturing those Cows). After Agri, Bronze Working to tame the forests. I pooped 48gold from a hut and Masonry. That and the Stone tells me I should get the Great Wall. Adds to my GG bonus from Imp and means I'm safe from barbs and can get an early great spy to cause mischief.

    I meet 2 rivals and one is damn close...







    Justinian is somewhere west, but really close too. Justinian is a religious nut while Hammy is Aggresive but is easy to get along with from my experience. My warrior then popped a hut for 4 barb warriors. He died after killing 2.. oh well.



    After BW is done, here is our map:



    and the tiny village of Lisbon:



    My Thoughts:

    Animal Husbandry serves dual purpose. One is to pasture the Cows and the other is to find Horses. If there are any in the vicinity, I'm thinking of Chariot rushing Hammy. (also need Wheel for that) Never try to axerush Hammy, especially on higher levels. His Bowmen eat axemen for dinner.

    Other than that, I wanna settle that Gold and also the Stone for the GW. I also should adopt Justinian's religion to avoid trouble. I want to REX and not fight religious wars, at least not early on.
     
  10. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    You should have settled on the plains hill. However, there's nothing you can do about that now.

    Don't bother with the Great Wall. The stone won't help, and only chopping can accelerate production (along with whipping but chopping is better). And the focus here is to chop settlers.
     
  11. callon

    callon Chieftain

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    I played for a while;
    Spoiler :
    warrior rushed hammu, then waged war with axes against justinian. The land is superb, and the capital is a true killer (settled 1E though). You can get a REALLY high score on this map, maybe ill play the game to completion just because of that. Btw I tried to get engineering from the Oracle but was beaten by 2 turns by the romans. :crazyeye:
     
  12. Ai Shizuka

    Ai Shizuka Chieftain

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    Played to 475 AD. Going well so far, but I'm getting into some serious troubles very soon.
    This is the first game I share here, so don't be too brutal on this mess :lol: :

    Spoiler :


    The start: I decided to settle 1W and started scouting with my warrior:



    Met these guys very soon:





    Promptly followed by Julius himself:



    Hammurabi is pretty darn close to the east and Justi to the west. Not so close, but still. I don't know where Julius is so far. Need to set up some early military.
    Tech path: Agriculture, followed by Bronze working. Lots of forest to chop and I want some copper asap.
    Building order so far: warrior - worker - settler.
    Got very lucky with the huts. 4 huts, always gold: 61, 54, 75, 48. All this gold will be very handy in a possible post-rush situation.

    Bronze working reveals 2 copper tiles: 5 tiles SE of Lisbon, wich is very close to Hammurabi. The second spot is far away to the NE, way too far to be considered. The location isn't so great, but there is copper, 2 golds and we can block Hammurabi.
    So Oporto is founded in 2720 AD, and immediately starts with a worker:



    Research is on Animal Husbandry to get those cows.
    I decided to roleplay a bit with the very expansive nature of Joao and quickly founded a third city to block Justi to a nice spot. Guimaraes is founded in 1880 and start pumping out axes. Copper is already online, thanks to some nice rivers:



    Research path: mysticism (need a monument to get the gold at Oporto), the wheel, sailing (when I realized the 3 cities was nicely connected by rivers), pottery (as I started whipping some axes and needed the granaries).

    Lisbon buildings after the first settler: barracks, worker, another settler, chariot, 2 axes, granary and more axes.

    Oporto: worker, barracks, axes.

    Looks like there is someone else on this continent, wich is getting very crowded. This puts Justi on my to-do list:



    In the meantime, Buddhism spread to us in 1840, but we don't convert.

    Babylon defense is still very poor, and we are pumping out axes from 3 cities.



    In year 1120 BC our little stack of 5 axes moves in and Hammurabi is no more. Nasty surprise when he whipped 2 Bowmen, but most of our axemen are CR promoted. Did it with 2 casualties:




    Buddhism holy city, of course, and Stonehenge:


    No more land to the east, and looks like Justi is very close to the ocean to the west. So we can corner him in that area with some more early cities, or we can wipe him out.
    The axes are ready, and he is too close for my taste, so he's gonna follow Hammurabi very soon. Hopefully he doesn't have too many cities so far.



    Reported until 1120 BC, gonna do the rest tomorrow.
     
  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    3160-1360BC

    @ Callon
    How far have you played so I have an idea of when I can look at the spoiler. :p

    Anyways, on to my game. :cool:

    As I stated in my intentions at the end of the previous round, I went AH so I can pasture the Cows and find Horses since Copper was nowhere to be seen. After AH, I went Writing (for Libraries), Mysticism (for monuments to allow border pops), Mathematics (more hammers from chopping + opens up Currency that we will need to fix our economy), and Pottery (allow cottages and our half cost granaries to allow rapid growth).

    I found Justinian very close to the west:



    .. and I found this guy. No clue where he is.



    Oporto is founded close to the SW of Lisbon to claim the Horses. It's important to secure a strategic resource by 2000BC in my experience. One of the most important goals in the early game.



    Guimares is founded far to the NE to claim some flood plains, Rice, and Copper and block off Hammy. I found Coimbra about halfway between Lisbon and Guimares to claim some more floodplains and Stone, but I don't have a screenie. Flood plains are almost like resources - 3F 1G is a good yield and allows for iintensive cottaging.



    I met Ceasar next; Praets are scary so I need some military even though he's probably far away.



    Next I get this event and after some thinking I decide to go for the riskiest option. Yea, I know my capital will have some happy problems early, but that's ok since I'm trana max out on production anyways and build settlers and workers. +2 health on top of +2 that already comes from Expansive means my late game production will be good since I can build Factories, Coal Plants, and Ind Parks and still grow.



    Regarding my capital:



    Yea .. I switched to Slavery and whipped the Library to help with unhappiness a bit. This event was certainly good:



    I found Evora near the Gold at Hammy's borders. Gold is not that huge here as a research benefit since the city needs a lot of forest chopping and farming before it can grow, but for increasing the happiness cap.



    The Portuguese Empire:



    The Frontier:



    The Army:



    Cities:



    Demo:



    My Thoughts:
    1) I'm tops in production and land area - this is always great!!
    2) I'm average in army size and I will watch that considering all my neighbors except Pericles are not peacemongers even if not violent maniacs.
    3) Right now, happiness is the main constraint. I need to get more happy resources and am connecting the Gold and Fur soon. Note that Monarchy is not good since it requires a lot of units stationed to be effective; my cities will be killed by city maintenance; I don't want unit maintenance too.
    4) I'm gonna change Iron Working (I have not invested any hammers yet) and go for Currency and then CoL since I plan to continue expanding like mad. 10-12 cities by 1AD and ~ same number of workers is my plan.
    5) Joao is the best REXer in the game. REXing is not only about claiming city sites, but also about development and cheap granaries and workers help with just that. Expansive and Imperialistic have great synergy.
     
  14. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Nice job grabbing some land. Any thoughts on an early war? I would actually go against this seeing that there's still more land to claim.
     
  15. Ai Shizuka

    Ai Shizuka Chieftain

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    First session - part 2, to 475 AD:

    Spoiler :


    Researched writing and alphabet after pottery, to start some tech trading.

    IW from Julius:



    Hunting from Justi:



    And we asked a little tribute from the good old Pericles, wich promptly delivered:



    The research path moved to Math and Construction to get some Catapults for Justi.
    Nice random event:



    A bully Justi knocks on our door:



    What about the other way around? We ask, he delivers:



    550 BC, our lone chariot finds the Greek empire, pretty far to the north. The Romans are to the east from there, not too close but not too far. There is a big desert between them, with some incense. We are ready to attack Justi and researching Currency and CoL, to fix the post-war economy.

    Greek empire location:



    525 BC, Costantinople belong to us and Scipio Africanus has been born in Oporto. He joins the army as a medic:



    Some cash from Pericles:



    We recovered a bit and Thessalonica is conquered in 300 BC. Poor Justi got his Great General right there:



    250 BC, Galileo is born in Babylon, where we are running 2 scientists. He builds an academy in Lisbon:



    Thessalonica, defended by an axeman, is re-conquered by a lone chariot. We are building some archers for defense in a couple cities:



    150 BC, Confucianism is founded in Oporto, as we discover CoL. We converted to Taoism a while ago for the happiness, wich is Pericles' religion. Julius still doesn't have any:




    100 BC, the army march on Adrianople:



    150 AD, we reconquer Thessalonica:



    250 AD is Nicaea's turn:



    Some trading with Pericles:



    450 AD, Justi is no more:




    And I stopped at this point.
    Tech path after CoL: compass, metal casting, machinery and Optics is almost done. Bulbed Aesthetics with our second GS.


    The Portuguese empire:



    We have 9 cities, and only 2 of them are on the coast, wich is a shame for Joao. That barbarian city NE of Babylon looks nice, and we may as well conquer it.

    The economy is going to sink a bit, but not so badly. We are running 70% research at this moment, with -26 gpt. We can make 4 gpt with 40% research. A couple cities already have market and courthouse, and we are chopping/whipping them pretty much everywhere.
    All the gold from the huts really helped, and we lost the Pyramids by 3 or 4 turns :mad:. That cash helped as well.

    The priorities now:

    - Fix the economy with markets, courthouses and libraries everywhere.
    - Pump out some workers. I have only 5 so far, and want at least 10-12.
    - Happiness is becoming a problem. I'm going to connect that fur in Guimaraes very soon. There are some spices in Adrianople and a lot of dyes, sugar and gems in the jungle. So Calendar is on the list after Optics.
    We need to spread Taoism in every city.
    - Border security: there is a huge fogged area between us and the Romans/Greeks and we already registered some big barbarian activity up there. We need to fogbust the southern ice as well.

    About that big area between us and the other guys, there are a lot of resources under that jungle, as well as a big river and some nice hilly spots.

    I'm very tempted to burst out some settlers and claim the better spots, if not the whole jungle region. But the area is huge; we are looking at 5-6 more cities. Not sure if it's feasible. Julius looks interested too, and he moved south with Antium and Cumae.
    The new frontier:



    Roman empire. Another city south of Cumae, so he's definitely going to claim the whole jungle if I don't do anything about that. This makes a colonization burst even more interesting.
    I may arrange a Greek-Roman war to keep them occupied.
    The Greek empire is still uncharted.



    Demographics are looking good:



    Military screen:



    Tech situation:



    Optics is coming in 10 turns and I'm gonna chop a couple Carracks to see who's out there and circumnavigate the globe asap. Looks like they are having some fun anyway, as we already noticed 3 or 4 GG born oversea.



    I'd really appreciate any kind of tips/advice/pointers.
     
  16. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    I'm not so impressed by the placement of Oporto in the main line - it doesn't have a lot to recommend it beside the horses, which were in Lisbon's third ring anyway?
     
  17. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

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    I would be a little concerned about war coming to us. Not immediately, but with the way Evora is pretty much daring Hammurabi to do something, I would be careful not to let my military slip while I continued to grab land with my cheap settlers and workers. (This is speaking from lessons learned the hard way.)

    Of course, it is MY nature in this game to storm into Hammurabi's territory as soon as was possible. At this point, I would say your next opportunity for that would be if you were to go for Horse Back Riding and send a group of horse archers and swords to do the job. Since that would be a pretty big strain on the empire right now, I'd say put off that war until catapults, but make sure you've got some decent defensive units in those border cities.

    Also, you are a land grabbing machine. With that in mind, I would strongly recommend that you get a unit or two out there in the wilderness and explore the rest of your continent now rather than later.

    You've got a water based UU and UB, so go find the ocean! At the very least, you'll have a better ability to formulate the long term plan when you are dropping down your next couple of cities.
     
  18. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    HR is NOT out of the question. Your native happiness ought to be high because of Fur and Gold, so it's not super-high priority, but with health flowing out your ears, happiness is your only limiting factor.

    I've never found unit maintenance to be prohibitive under HR because each unit allows you to work a tile you might not otherwise be able to, in a city that's mature so the multipliers are usually well in place. Moreover, since you will usually be able to concentrate your forces where they're necessary, you do not need to pay for happiness in cities that don't need them - only in your biggest cities.

    I've evaluated your last save and in my most humble opinion, you have no immediate need to rush Hammurabi, and that doing so only will slow you down, both because you're busy building war units and because you won't be able to trade with Hammurabi for techs later on. Too, if you wipe him out now, he won't block land against other Civs and they will be correspondingly stronger.

    I think it's a mistake to try rushing Hammurabi without knowing what his land contains and what current units he's got. You could still succeed, but I wouldn't go that way myself.

    Your native happiness is 4. You have Fur, Gold, and can still claim Gems and Elephants. That makes a native happiness of 8. With two units each under HR (barely more than base garrison), your cities can top out at 10 before any unhappiness ensues, without any religion whatsoever. Six units garrison, a state religion, and one temple can see you at happiness 16, 17 with a Forge, and 19 once you hit Calendar and snag or trade for Calendar resources.

    You have prime land for food settling just north of you. You're Expansive. You have bonus health. You have luxuries. Go for it!

    It's a low level, so I think a Feudalism slingshot is doable - teching Meditation, then Priesthood for Oracle, finishing Monarchy just before Oracle finishes, using cottaged Floodplains to fuel teching.

    Feudalism will open Vassalage which will reward you with CR1Accuracy Catas or CR2 Swordsmen (if you find Iron) - good for taking on Justinian or Hammurabi once the settling phase finishes. It'll also reduce unit maintenance which concerns you under HR. They go well together when acquired early. My preference for a war unit on this map is Shock Elephants, built with just Barracks under Vassalage - no need for Stables, and punishing even for Spearmen.

    Oh yes, it'll also allow you to build Longbows.

    Then again, knowing me, I'd get all obsessed with getting all those cities to size 19 ASAP that I'll probably forget all about the war.

    PS: I'm not very happy, actually, with the settling of Evora. Yes, it gets you Gold, but it'll require a fair amount of Worker turns and waiting to get it to do anything else, and that poorly. I would have probably allowed Hammy to settle and develop that site for me, then trade for the Gold later on. I would have placed the city to claim the Ellies, which supplies both happiness, and a potent attack unit - better than Swordsmen. Then again, this is Noble, so I supposed you could just do both and drown your opponents in Settlers regardless.
     
  19. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @Rox

    I will get HR eventually, but not just now. With my REXing plans, I'm gonna need Currency and CoL as well as Calendar for Spices, Sugar, and Dye.

    Regarding Hammurabi, I gave up on rushing after the first save. That would go against the spirit of the game. We are here to REX and I won't be fighting any wars prior to ~500AD (after REXing, it will take a bit for the economy to recover).

    Regarding Calendar resources, I plan to snag all of them :lol:. I don't plan to do a Feudalism slingshot although it is a good idea. Without Marble and still far away from Priesthood, I think it would be counterproductive.

    Thanks for your input either way!! :goodjob:
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    Good to know. :) I'm wondering at the Chariot/Warrior garrison at the westernmost city, though. Shouldn't the Chariot be scouting out your lands? There's another lazy chariot at the city east of your capital.

    Currency and CoL - wow. You must be planning on REXing like you were possessed. Wouldn't you be best served by Stonehenge for that? If you're going to found that many cities, the savings on Monuments from Henge will be quite substantial.
     

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