Climb the Ladder II: Joao II - Noble

[dankok8]

1360-525BC

As this round started, I took some advice from the readers here and sent a few of my chariots out to explore. I also switched research to Currency to help the economy. When I saw this, I realized something:



Yea... even my 6 chariots could have easily grabbed his capital. Workers were busy chopping more workers, settlers, and an occasional chariot as well as laying some cottages mostly near my capital and Guimares (that city far NE surrounded by flood plains). I also founded Lagos to get Spices and some more flood plains. (You can see Justinian's city already claiming one of the Spices).



I find this:



So that's where you've been hiding and making salads. Hammy also founded Judaism so that means he's gotta go. I plan to befriend Justinian and adopt Christianity.

I founded another city north of Lagos to get the Gems. It will be a bit before this one is optimized because I don't have Iron Working.



Yea.. ok Hammy. Go get all that snow and ice down south.



This is not as funny...



Yikes, I better make some axemen or I'm toast if he declares. Chariots suck against Praets. Christianity spreads from Lisbon and I convert --> more happiness and a friend is always good. My chariot also found the Greek empire far to the NW.



Then I founded another city to get Ivory and you guessed it... flood plains. This map is cottage heaven!!!



Here, I disband one or 2 warriors to reduce unit maintenance..



I'm researching at 30% and losing Gold, but I still founded Faro to end the round. This city totally blocks off Hammy, only leaving him the snow and ice. First thing next round, I'll close borders with Hammy so he cannot spread Judaism to anyone or settle any fertile land. Faro also gives me access to the ocean.



The Inflated Portuguese Empire:



The North: (this continent is pretty big)



All Sorts of Other Info:















My Thoughts:
1) Diplomacy is heading in the right direction.. Justinian likes me, Hammy doesn't. Pericles won't declare on me since I'm far and my power is bigger, but I'm a bit worried about Caesar so I'm building axemen. My army is currently very chariot based which leaves me vulnerable, but it did help kill some barb warriors.
2) I have 11 workers, but I could use a few more...
3) I need to settle maybe one or two more cities in the next few turns, settle down and fix the economy.
4) My city maintenance is 29 and civic is 14 because I have a lot of cities. I'm 1 turn from Currency so trade routes will help.
5) I've managed to increase my happiness cap quite a bit with religion and Ivory, Furs, Gold.

 

[UWHabs]

I wouldn't have settled so many cities, and instead just gone and axed Babylon.

 

[NoDot]

I'll echo the one above. Kill.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

That's very...different, compared to my game. Still, we are going to face the same problems, I think.
So I'm gonna follow this closely, and hope to learn something.

Not playing my game further, as I still need some advice.

Back on my other game, where I'm sharing a not so big continent with Montezuma and Sitting Bull .

 

[dankok8]

525-175BC

I played a bit further (14 more turns) and a few interesting things happened in our favor. I built 2 more workers and a whole bunch of military and discount granaries in this round.

The round started and I wanted to quickly scout Hammy's lands before I closed borders with him, but that had its price...



..Yea one of his missionary got threw and might convert Caesar. That could be really bad. Luckily, Justinian was faster. Welcome to the flock C!



Note how much pressure Faro is from Dur Kurigazlu though (Judaist holy city) - it lost its Clam tile!! Well at least Hammy is being blocked out:



Damn, he's got Swordsmen meaning there must be Iron in his territory. Justinian got Alphabet and I pulled this awesome trade. I also got 30g that is not visible in the screenie.



I got Iron Working so I can clear the jungle and settle Iron (there isn't any in my land ). I got Alphabet so I can trade techs with others and also Sailing which is a prereq for Calendar + a bunch of other stuff.

Finally, as the round came to an end and Lisbon reached the happy cap, I converted one of the citizens to a Scientist.



I also settled a city in the NE to get Banana.



Some Relevant Info:











Maps:

NW:



NE:



Hammy's Core:



Greco-Roman Lands: (far north)



My Thoughts:
1) My economy is already better even before CoL (1 turn away) thanks to cottages on flood plains and Currency trade routes. I can easily afford to absorb Hammy's core or expand more. I'm researching at 30% with a surplus.
2) Hammy's land sucks. I'm glad I didn't rush him earlier. An axerush was likely suboptimal because of those Bowmen anyways and even a Chariot rush would set me behind in REXing. I'm willing to argue that the land I settled so far is better than Hammy's land. His capital is just very subpar. Only Dur Kurigazlu may be worthwhile especially if he builds a shrine for me too.
3) We are tops in pretty much everything. The next best AI's have 5 cities. Caesar and Pericles are teching well and I plan to sell Currency and Alphabet to Caesar ASAP for Calendar and Construction. I really need both of those techs and I can't decide which is more important. Construction for Elephants/Catapults to crush Hammy and Calendar for more happy resources.
4) My cities have grown really nice, but I need to increase the happy cap further.

My Main Question:
Expand more or Kill Hammy now?!?

 

[Roxlimn]

10 cities is plenty, I think, at this point. Wouldn't want to anger JC by settling too close to him. You got great land blocked off, you ought to develop it and your cities as well, then tech through to Renaissance.

When your cities are en route to maturity, I think you could use a few production cities to produce Ellies and Cats to kill Hamm - not for the land, mind you, just to get XP and one or two GGs.

Once you get access to FP, bust out and kill everyone on your continent. Might consider getting GLH to better your economy even more.

 

[vicawoo]

10 cities is plenty, I think, at this point. Wouldn't want to anger JC by settling too close to him. You got great land blocked off, you ought to develop it and your cities as well, then tech through to Renaissance.

When your cities are en route to maturity, I think you could use a few production cities to produce Ellies and Cats to kill Hamm - not for the land, mind you, just to get XP and one or two GGs.

Once you get access to FP, bust out and kill everyone on your continent. Might consider getting GLH to better your economy even more.

He has maybe 3 coastal cities.

 

[Roxlimn]

Ah, my mistake. I only examined the earlier save. I was thinking he would have more, by now. Still, 6 additional trade routes isn't that bad a deal - it's more or less 6/10 the boost he got from Currency, depending on how big his coastals are.

It won't be broken-good, but it would still help his economy more.

 

[LuCiver]

If Hammi's land sucks, why are you still considering war with him? He is already marginalized by your REXing and won't be much of a threat. Maybe Justinian would be a better target? Open borders with him and scout his land to see if it is. You will probably get your own religion with CoL, which you could spam to JC and convert him before going to war with his Byzantine brothers.

 

[dankok8]

He has maybe 3 coastal cities.

Just 1 actually, but will have 3 if I conquer Hammy. GLH is certainly a big diversion from my plans right now and its benefits will be small imo.

If Hammi's land sucks, why are you still considering war with him? He is already marginalized by your REXing and won't be much of a threat.

That is a very valid reason to not attack Hammy. Another is that capturing his cities will prevent us from taking that land from up north which will be claimed by Ceasar soon while Hammy is not going anywhere.

Reasons to Attack Hammy Now:
1) Long border that is difficult to defend. Better to take him out than to wait for him to build an army and attack me.
2) His territory has the only Iron resource that is unclaimed.

Justinian has better land, but is also a friend of myself and Ceasar. Attacking him may mean fighting Rome as well. Even Justinian does not have any happy resources we don't have and no wonders afaik so settling that land up north may be the best plan in the short term.

 

[JTMacc99]

If you can trade for calendar and/or construction, then what are planning to research next?

I actually think that calendar is pretty far down the list for the moment. You have access to four (4!) pre-calendar happy resources. All of your cities could grow and grow for a long time with few anger problems.

At this point, you could easilly take out Hammy at your convenince with very sensible army of 4-5 catapults, 4-5 swords, and 4-5 surplus chariots. So I'd probably want to get construction just to get those catapults built.

After that, I would probably think about going monarchy-feudualism and then make the complete civics upgrade to HR/Vas/Serf. The serfdom will be really helpful for all that land devolopment and cottage building you need to do and CG2 longbows will be nice to have.

 

[dankok8]

175BC-760AD

Much longer round here and a whole lot happened. A turn into the round, CoL finished and we founded Confucianism. I don't plan on spreading this religion now. Maybe if we adopt FR later on. I started research on Calendar followed by HBR to enable Elephants and Horse Archers.

Thanks to Iron Working, I was able to cut jungle now and bring cities like Braga up to their potential.



Hammy is really persistent, isn't he?!?



It didn't matter since Pericles converted to Christianity and pulled this trade with him:



I know the trade is not awesome, but Justinian already has Alphabet and so why not.. Pericles isn't gonna benefit too much. Damn Ceasar beat me to a spot in the north by 1 turn. Damn!!



I'm beginning to prepare for invading Hammy. Other than building 2-3 workers in this round and some infrastructure (libraries and many courthouses), my cities were producing Elephants, Catapults and HA's and I build a road NE of Evora so I can attack Babylon 1 turn after I declare.



Oracle was very tempting at this point (capital needed 8 turns), but I resisted temptation. I founded 2 cities up north, one of which is coastal:





After HBR was done, I went after Civil Service followed by Compass to get closer to Optics and enable the UU. As my army is assembling, I notice something ...



How the heck did he get Longbows!?!? Turns out he took Feudalism off the Oracle. Another trade with Pericles (everyone except him already had CoL) and bad event with him that hurt relations by -1:



At this point, I decide I've had enough of Hammy and I declare.



He threatens Faro with a Combat III Swordsmen, but I reinforce my lone chariot with 2 axemen. That darn Sword killed 2 axemen in the next 2 turns barely taking a scratch.



The Siege of Babylon:



Given the weak defenses in the city, I decided it would be wasteful to suicide catapults and simply send in 2 HA's to soften to garrison; one retreated and another died and the elephants took the city (~95% odds) with no further casualties:



I was disappointed in the city:



I switched to Bureaucracy. Any other switch (to HR or CS) would have cost me 2 turns of anarchy. I figured it was not worth it because my happy cap was high and I had a pure cottage economy so I would not benefit from Caste.



While my troops were healing in Babylon, I see something that made me laugh.. He completed the GLH for me in Dur.



Trade with Justinian:



Oporto was threatened by 2 swords or something like that and I whipped an axemen to defend:



A GG was also born in Lisbon which I settled as an instructor. The battle of Dur Kurigazlu was bloody:



Formation Spearmen... the AI is not that dum after all. Still, the good guys won albeit with heavy casualties (I lost 4 cats, an elephant and 2 HA's).



and I made peace with Hammy for the time being:



This event was good and so was the trade to wrap up the round:





Empire:



Domestic:



Tech:



Demo:



My Thoughts:
1) There are still a few crevices I can REX. Maybe 1 or 2 cities.
2) We are tops in everything. My plan now is to get Aesthetics and Literature and build the Great Library. After that, Optics and Liberalism.
3) I should also finish Hammy off soon.

 

[NoDot]

Enough expansion! The next several cities you take should be from the cold, dead hands of your enemies.

 

[Roxlimn]

More expansion! Mwahahaha!!!! Showcase the power of Imperialism.

Although I have to say that I'm kinda disappointed that you have so few big cities by that late a date. 760 AD should be seeing you pushing 17 pop in your top cities.

 

[futurehermit]

I probably would've gone for a semi-Obsolete-style opening since stone is available on the second border pop. Stonehenge-GW-Oracle-Pyramids at least.

Alternatively, with two close neighbours, find the closest military resource and take them both out going for the pyramids after that.

Although REXing is certainly Joao's strong point, I think this is a good example where a preset strategy is perhaps not as optimal as playing what the map gives you (stone, close neighbours).

 

[Roxlimn]

I wouldn've done something similar, actually, using Stone in lieu of Industrious for AC-like play, with the bonus of Expansive for faster set-up and faster vertical growth. The loss of GW and Pyramid was a real blow. On Noble, too.

That said, I do not believe that the map and leader trait called for early or even Medieval offensives, necessarily. Joao's Imperialistic trait would allow him to gain a lot of land even building the Wonders, and his Expansive trait and the generous amount of happy resources would allow him to vertically expand nearly to size 20 cities everywhere as fast as he could.

Given the food rich nature of the map, I would have cottaged the central FP location, then used the latter food rich sites north and south of that to run Specialists under Representation, funded by the central Cottaged site.

Use the Production Rich Capital to go for Oracle slingshot to CoL or Feudalism, then grow the cities up while producing level 2 Swordsmen in my top production sites - for defensive purposes. Once Macemen come online, mass upgrade to CR2 macemen and attack Hammy.

 

[dankok8]

I'm glad I'm being criticized here. This is probably not optimal since I should have fit a wonder or two given the stone, but teaching new noble players to build wonders is not a good thing. Also, considering my capital built quite a few settlers/workers, my expansion would have been greatly slow down had I built a few. I have Oracle and GLH now anyways thanks to Hammy.

Another thought. War is a good thing to weaken my enemies, but peaceful expansion can be better especially if the unclaimed land is better than my neighbors' land. The only valid reason I have to finish Hammy soon is that he still has the source of Iron and to get rid of the "we yearn to join out homeland" unhappiness in Babylon and Dur. Oh and my population size is not that bad

 

[Roxlimn]

It is, actually. Having a ton of low output cities does nothing except slow your techrate - vital for quick wins. It's acceptable to put out cities like there's no tomorrow, but at some point, you have to allow certain cities to grow to advance your main teching sites.

You know this!

I think it's instructive to teach Noble players the power of Imperialistic, and certainly the level allow for it easily, but NOT getting wonders helps the AI as much as ceding it land does - it gives the AI resources you may not benefit from at all - particularly Oracle.

I think teaching Noble players the point of selective or purposeful Wonder building is better than telling them not to build Wonders at all. Unlike in previous iterations of the game, Wonders are not things you get when you're already winning. Due to the healthier builder aspect of the game, they're now a viable part of a streamlined strategy.

I would not have minded ceding land to Hammy if it helps him to tech the lower techs - which he will invariably do. This allows me to trade techs from him instead of researching them myself - ceding land to the AI increases my tech rate!

 

[futurehermit]

Teaching new players to avoid wonders is not a bad thing. Teaching new players to avoid cheap/good wonders when stone/marble is available early on is a bad thing imo. The best advice, I think, is to play the map. If the map gives you stone/marble, especially in your capital's early culture, then planning some wonders is a good idea. If the map does not give you stone/marble, and you are not industrious, THEN avoiding wonders is a good idea, unless it's something like GLH and you have a lot of coast...like I said, it depends on the map.

That being said, I think the current game is progressing well. Taking out Hammy is an obvious next step and, once that is done, you should be in a very, very winnable position.

 

[dankok8]

I agree that my cities should be larger but come on.. I have double the population size of the next best AI. Cut me some slack!!

I wanted to build the Great Wall, but people on the forum advised me not to which I think was a good thing. First, it let me expand faster and second, barb activity was low. The +100% GG would have helped, but considering I probably won't do a lot more fighting in this game, not necessary. Mids would not be useful since I'm not running an SE to any extent. I don't even have a GP farm here.

I think it's instructive to teach Noble players the power of Imperialistic, and certainly the level allow for it easily, but NOT getting wonders helps the AI as much as ceding it land does - it gives the AI resources you may not benefit from at all - particularly Oracle.

Wonders do not help the AI if I capture their cities.

I would not have minded ceding land to Hammy if it helps him to tech the lower techs - which he will invariably do. This allows me to trade techs from him instead of researching them myself - ceding land to the AI increases my tech rate!

Hammy adopted Judaism and knowing Justinian and his zealot attitude, I decided to befriend him since the game started. Hammy would not trade with me if I have a different religion, closed borders and have close border tension.
Blocking Justinian early would have a been a bit harder (little further away + imperialistic).

If the map gives you stone/marble, especially in your capital's early culture, then planning some wonders is a good idea.

Given that the Christianity is well spread in my lands, perhaps I could still benefit from the Stone and build the U of Sankore and/or Spiral Minaret. Thoughts?

Regardless, my next round will focus on making my cities larger and wiping Hammy off the map. Oh and I will try for the Great Library.