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Climb the Ladder III: Suryavarman - Prince

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dankok8, Nov 15, 2008.

  1. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Location:
    Canada
    Continents - Temperate - Medium sea level - Standard size map - Normal Speed - Prince Difficulty. Choose Religions is ON, everything else default.

    Our Leader:



    UU:



    UB:



    The Start:



    Once again the start is not eye-popping, but not bad either. Riverside glasslands are good as we saw from the Joao game. This leader is interesting... Creative + Expansive means decent at blocking out land + great vertical growth thanks to the UB which adds +1 food. Cheap Libraries certainly help and UB + Expansive also make healthiness much less of a constraint although this usually only becomes an issue in the late game. The elephant is already so tough as you saw from the Joao game so you can't expect the Khmer UU to be amazing. I do hope I have Ivory though and I promise I will properly specialize cities in this game. It will be the emphasis to illustrate that.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hey look! A bureaucracy cottage capitol with enough forests to chop out early expansion...and cheap workers to make that process quicker :p!

    Normal speed huh. Let me see if I can shadow this in less than 2 hours. I'll try because then I have a paper to write.
     
  3. deathturnip

    deathturnip Deliciously carcenagenic!

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    This should be a good one, especially since the Khmer UB is so useful. I would settle 1n to pick up the bananas while keeping the corn (or is it sugar? cant tell.) Granted that sacrifices a few hills which might be needed for some production. Definitely get agriculture first, then probably bronze working, just so that your cheap workers have plenty to do. And do not forget to farm the bananas before calendar. All too often I see people leave calendar resources unimproved, and they can be fairly valuable even without plantations (with a farm, those bananas are worth 4f 1c if i recall correctly.)

    edit: yes, it is 4f 1c from farmed bananas. slightly stronger than un-irrigated (but farmed) rice.

    edit 2:
    Spoiler :
    To anybody who settled 1n, sorry about that. i had no idea the capitals bfc would be so great
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Shadow to 1000 AD. Sury is better than people think.

    Spoiler :


    Hunting and mining starting techs.

    Settle in place (hard to tell if moving would help at all). Corn, rice, ivory, and marble? Looking snazzy. Capitol is weak in hammers but good otherwise.

    AG then BW.

    Coast is a reasonable distance due east with initial scout. Gold over there means we're @ +2 happy already. Easy game looming.

    3600 I ninja a hut (xp) from 1 tile outside de gaulles borders and meet him. I say hi and move on for now.

    3240 roosy checks in from the north. A scout. He's nabbing huts too. Fur and silver in the icy wasteland below de gaulle. might be hard to get that stuff



    3120 exploration is limited of course but don't see any bronze. Archers next

    3000 Discover roosy is actually due SW of capitol. He must have explored awkwardly.

    2560 I decide on a catapult war. 2 happy resources, potentially strong early research, docile neighbors, and ivory. Yes yes. Important to decide now, so we can get hammer cities going.

    2280 lion eats an archer, that's new. no settler loss at least...it was trailing

    2240 Hi to cyrus, who is far north through the jungle.



    1600 Change of short term plan. Lots of land to expand to up north, a GP farm via dual fish, and strong research. Peaceful expansion, teching alpha as nobody has it yet.

    950 Alpha in, trade writing for fishing and mysticism, waiting for someone to tech IW. I decide to head straight to CS.

    450 more archer city spam. I'm trying to fill this ridiculous amount of land we get on this map.





    125 I get code of laws...caste system time.

    225 AD I get beat to taoism by one turn! Oh well...I'm jewish because most of the AIs are. I just bulb philo for the civic then. Er....forgot choose religion was on. Hah. I wonder what tech was actually reached.

    275 ad revolt to Bur and pacifism. Must spread jewish to GP farm.

    450 AD archers grab the barb city defended by warriors...easy.

    475 AD got hanging gardens. I decide to mass a bunch of archers there in case roosy gets fresh. Others won't declare cuz they like me.

    500 empire:











    560 Cyrus snuck a city between mine. It'll be flipped eventually.

    600 AD Hahaha. The copper near the barb city is the first metal I get.

    860 AD After putting a bulb into education I've started unis all over. Meanwhile I win lib this turn, taking nationalism.



    940 AD I teched machinery next and now sunk a bulb into PP, 2 turns left on that.

    1000 AD I'm heading toward cuirassers, so that I can put roosy down easy. Empire is otherwise feeling quite strong:









    No early wonders. I don't think I've completed one although might win the ones I've got queue'd behind the universities (want oxford ASAP).



    I put a few extra screens in. Maybe it will help give an idea how I got to where I did. Any questions ask me - I'm posting this walkthrough to help.

    View attachment 194385
     
  5. Mercenary82

    Mercenary82 Chieftain

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    Location:
    Nevada
    Suryavarman, my second best leader and one of the most underated.
    Looks like a good start here for sury, his starting techs and traits scream early BW and you have a ton of forests to chop. I'd settle in place since you may lose a resource by going N for the bannana that you can't use anytime soon anyway.
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Can you turn on resource yields please?

    Can't wait to see how this game turns out. :) I will be watching with interest.
     
  7. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Location:
    Canada
    4000-3120BC

    After looking at the starting position and moving the scout to the hill 2W of the starting position, I decided to settle in place.



    Turned out to be a great decision. Had I moved 1N, I would have lost Ivory and we need Ivory for those Ballistas. Also, it allowed us to pop a hut.



    Alright, a 2nd scout!! This always helps. We ended up popping 4 more huts in this round, yet one more scout, a useless map, and a total of 107 gold. Not bad!!

    I started off by researching Agri while building a Worker so I can irrigate that Corn and Rice ASAP and also connect the Ivory.

    We met Roosevelt to the southwest:





    De Gaulle is immediately south of us:





    and Cyrus who is likely somewhere north:



    After Agri, we went for Bronze Working and started building a Warrior. 3 Scouts is not much of a defense. ;)

    When Bronze Working was done, I decided to end there thanks to my intense scouting and discuss city placement:



    Our Capital:



    I adjusted the city to work the 2F 1H glassland forest and it allowed the city to grow in 4 turns and also build a Warrior in 4 turns. Working the Rice would have let the city still grow in 3 turns, but the Warrior would take 8. This kind of tile adjustment or micromanagement really helps at higher levels.

    I think we have a very good capital with Ivory. No copper is a concern so I'm thinking AH is next. I'm also thinking of rushing De Gaulle especially since he already founded a religion. Thoughts? Dotmaps or placement discussion would also be welcome. :)
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    You'd still get the ivory as a resource on the 2nd border pop by 1 N, but in place is superior regardless IMO. Plains elephants have the same food/hammers as grassland mines, with some added commerce (really nice since they're riverside, too). Along with the marble, the capitol is much better for hammers than it initially looked in the opening screen shot.

    I'll keep an eye on this one, be sure to check the 1000 AD spoiler once you get there :p.
     
  9. deathturnip

    deathturnip Deliciously carcenagenic!

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    Yeah. i would have never suggested 1n had i known there where 2 elephants AND marlble. anyway, nice job so far.

    you can get a pretty nice city just south of the capital. alot of overlap, but floods, gold and whine. the desert west of the capital beetween the cows and rice looks like a flood plain, so 1NE of that could support alot of cottages with a couple mines to boot. further west is some gold. 1n of it could get some good production from the looks of it, though you may need to steal the rice.
    this would be alot easyer with a save to get some better views.
     
  10. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Location:
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    3120-2000BC

    Another relatively short round because there is some opportunity for discussion.
    As the round started off, I started research on AH in the hopes of revealing Horses. Also, looking at how much improvement the capital could use, food plentiness + anticipated forest chopping, I decided to go for another worker before the settler.

    My scout took a look at the French capital:



    I could have warrior rushed him, but that's clearly and exploit and does not work on higher levels anyways so I don't want to showcase it.

    We found Cyrus pretty far to the north; our scout died while defending against a Lion on a hill. Oh well..



    One of my other scouts popped a hut for some more gold:



    AH was done at this point and I went for Wheel so I can enable Chariots and can connect the Horses. Speaking of Horses, I found them right to the west of Yaso (our capital).



    The settler was helped by a chop. I ended up building another Warrior, Worker and the Barracks until the end of the round. I also finished Pottery after Wheel to enable cottages and cheap granaries and Writing to enable Libraries and Open Borders.

    Hari was founded in 2360BC to claim the Horses. Another good city with grassland and also Rice and Cows.



    At the end of the round, our cities are ready to commence Chariot production. Judging by our happiness problems in the early game, I'm thinking of chopping, but not overusing the whip, but we'll see.

    Maps:

    Our Empire:



    French:



    Americans:



    Southern Tundra:



    Vast Regions to the NE:



    North Near Persia:



    Our Cities:





    My Thoughts:
    1) Who to rush, Roosy or De Gaulle? I'm leaning De Gaulle since he has a central position on the continent and after killing him, I can easily block out Roosy by settling a city between Yaso and Paris and one west of Hari. The only bad thing is Paris is on a hill. I'll need 8-10 Chariots.
    2) No one is gonna touch that land NE if I don't Open Border with Roosy and I eliminate De Gaulle so claiming that can wait until Currency/CoL.
    3) I have Marble so I'll build the GL, but that's later on. Stone is also near so maybe 'mids we'll see.
     
  11. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    What was your build order? You probably want to get a second worker pretty early to start chopping. Also, improve the 2nd ivory before the grassland farm, and the cows before the flood plain farm. Pastures take 4 (6) turns, I think flood plain farms take 8-9 epic, and you get more yield.

    Barays, they're cost a lot of hammers, so I wouldn't count on being able to build them in all your cities early. Your cities (save the unhealthy of course) should be busy doing other things, like making workers to clear jungles or units.
     
  12. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

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    That's an awful lot of nice land there. Go forth and multipy.
     
  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    2000-675BC

    @vic

    I did build (chop) a 2nd worker before the settler to help with chopping. Build order was worker, warrior, worker, settler, warrior.

    As the worker finished in Yaso, I started on Chariots and I instructed my workers to chop:





    When Math was done, I started on Masonry so I can build a wonder or 2 and connect that marble.

    I did 2 or 3 chops and when I had 7 Chariots (6 were produced in Yaso and 1 in Hari who started building more workers) and noticed that De Gaulle had an archer and warrior defending, I decided I didn't need 8-10 and:





    I moved in from that desert tile 1N1NW so he only has a single turn to whip defenders. This is where speed matters. Had I used axemen, I would have stronger attackers, but the enemy would have one defender more as well. On a hill, it's a worse proposition since the defender has a high chance to take no damage. Also, chariots can retreat (10% chance) so it makes up for their lack of strength somewhat.

    Nevertheless, De Gaulle whipped a settler in his capital as I arrived. I lost a single chariot attacking and Paris was mine and the French were gone.



    As Masonry finished, I decided on Iron Working so I can clear those northern jungles where I plan to expand. Since my cities were at the happy cap, I founded a city between Yaso and Paris. Gold would help with happiness and would also box Roosy in. That NE expanse should be mine.



    When IW was finished, I started Construction to enable our UU and catapults.

    I also faced a horde of barb warriors near my capital and gave my defending chariot a shock promotion. He ended up killing 4 of them in a span of 2 turns I think. When Construction was done, I decided to end the round.

    Our Empire:



    Roosy:



    Cyrus:



    Northern Expanses:



    Domestic:



    Demo:



    Power:



    Military:



    Cities:









    My Thoughts:
    1) I should have taken my Chariots right on to Roosy. Could have taken him out too, but I have a feeling he won't be around for long now that I have Ballistas and Catapults.
    2) Do I expand now or kill Roosy. I certainly should box Cyrus in at the very least.
    3) Where do I settle?!? I have a settler just done in Yaso right now.
    4) Yaso should be a GP farm. Paris should be a production city. Angkor Thom should be cottaged site and I'm not sure about Hari - maybe production too since we always need that.
    5) I'm building Colloseums everywhere now to help raise the happy cap. Or should I expand to claim happy resources now and tank the economy?

    What do you think?
     
  14. deathturnip

    deathturnip Deliciously carcenagenic!

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    I had some time to spare, and this game is roughly at my skill level, so a shadow was inevitable. Sorry, no pictures. To make things worse, I forgot to keep a log of my actions so this is all from memory. Advice and critique would be appreciated.


    Spoiler :
    Settled south of the capital to grab some floods along with the gold and wine for production and happy. then got the floods further east for cottages. north eastern bananas were then claimed along with the rice, and got the northwestern ones with the elephants yet again for cottages. settles 4 more to push cyrus and roosevelt back grabbing spice, hoarses, fish, and more gold in the process. Once the rexing was done, the french had adopted islam while both cyrus and roosevelt had confuscianism. obviously this meant he was a good target, though i had no metal. After finding this out, i grabbed HBR before even alphabet and started cranking out hoars archers. Next was alphabet to figure out how i was doing tech wise then CoL to help the economy. Surprisingly, i was not too far behind. Since i wouldnt get diplo penalties for declaring on the french, i cease fired every time i needed to heal or regroup, and extorted every tech he had on me, actually getting me up to on par. sadly, dispite different religions, cyrus was appearently friendly with the late french. All of my remaining horse archers went north after the french where eradicated to deal with the inevitable DoW's. once enough courthouses where built for me to get back up to 20% tech, i was shooting past everybody, meaning i could simply coast to victory, though i had to prioritise longbows thanks to cyrus, who dispite a shared religion is roosevelt worst enemy thanks to all the "you declared war on our friend" penalties. I later on won domination by wiping out the japanese and english on the other continent, leaving roosevelt alone since he was friendly even after i whent into FR. I never got above 40% tech, so banks and such where prioritised over markets.


    Finally, on the the comments. looks like you still have 10 chariots intact. it would seem wastefull to not use them. check to see if you got any diplo penalties for attacking the french, and if you did wipe out whoever liked them with that hoard. If not, definitely go for roosevelt. his power level is pretty low, leading me to think he invested in a wonder. one can hope at least. hopefully you can box in cyrus while your at it.
     
  15. CreeDakota

    CreeDakota Chieftain

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    Is roosy industrios? I think so, if so perhaps Rex and block Cyrus first then steal the Americans investment.
     
  16. deathturnip

    deathturnip Deliciously carcenagenic!

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    you're right. he is industrious. what do you think the odds are of him getting another wonder? maybe you should open borders and watch to make sure he has one, perhaps even giving him some techs that would speed him along in that aspect? playing with fire, true. I still think you should wipe him out now while sending a settler (i see you have one) up to the desert bottleneck that would keep the persians at bay for a while. this will be a pretty expensive city, but 3 capitals should pay for it nicely, in addition to that one really nice future cottage city. Just make sure that the wonder is complete before invading, otherwise you are wasting alot of hammers. his.

    What are the chances of generating a prophet? paris would make a really good commerce, perhaps even wallstreet city with a shrine in place, and even though it is an un-popular approach, missionaries would be worth it before long, plus it would make the religion civics meaningfull.
     
  17. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I thought Paris should be a production city and it would be good at that, but I completely forgot it has a shrine in it. It also has 2 cottages already built :lol: On a side note, maybe I should convert to Islam and also spread it to Cyrus. +1 happiness + +25% building speed is not to be underestimated. I was thinking of building the Shwedagon Paya anyways; it's even better because I don't need to research any religious techs. I rarely do unless I go for the Oracle and I rarely go for that.

    Attacking Roosevelt would not work now, at least not without heavy casualties. I'd much rather wait for Ballistas + Cats. I can always disband any extra chariots, but they are helping fight barbs now. I don't want any "we yearn .." unhappiness + keeping him alive for a bit will allow tech trades. If I kill him, the only way I can trade with Cyrus if I get him to Friendly and that's a tall order especially if he does not adopt Islam.
     
  18. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    Definitely expand. Expansion is one of Sury's stronger points. He gets cities online faster than anyone else. No need for Monuments, cheap granaries to enable faster whipping of the essential buildings. Claim the happy resources, use Expansive to health limit and get Baray for even faster upwards expansion.

    If you're short on happies, get Monarchy for unlimited happiness. You won't tank the economy as long as you grow the cities up fast enough and you work cottages with the pop. You need food and happiness resources for that. By the time you get CoL and Currency, the game ought to be yours.

    Suggestions for the walkthrough:

    1. Build order was Worker, Warrior, Worker, Settler, Warrior, but Princes wouldn't understand the factors that let you to decide on this build order. Clarify please. You would particularly need to explain the benefits of Forest-chopping and why it's better to click the "chop" icon rather than the "farm" icon.

    2. You built Chariots. This is a habit of higher level players. Lower level players on Prince have no special need of Chariots to survive. Why is it beneficial to build Chariots for Barbarian defense when you could just fog bust with Warriors? Is it necessary to fog bust with Warriors? Why is it good to build Chariots rather than city improvements?

    3. Why did you research Math before Masonry? Nobles would not know that universally, though some might.

    4. You "saw" that de Gaulle only had an Archer and a Warrior for defense. How did you do that? Why is scouting important and at what point in the game do you stop sending units for scouting? When is Open Borders beneficial and when is it NOT beneficial?

    5. Angkor Thom. Why did you build it where you did? City Placement is an important Civ skill. At Immortal, games can be decided based on how well you placed your cities. How would you expect this city to perform in the immediate and the long term? What is this "blocking" you're talking about, and why is it important to learn that?

    6. Why are you thinking of researching Iron Working to settle the Jungle territories when you have so much land around your own lands that you can settle profitably? On Prince, the AIs are notably slow on settling. You can settle Gold/Pig and Cow/Wine without much difficulty - and no need for IW.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Forgive me, life is not always easy for a grad student:

    Nonetheless, finished real quickly today. UN win, 1812 AD.

    Spoiler :
    1000 AD I note that I lack iron, so cuirassers would be a little silly to push for. Cavalry will work though. I have horse. With that in mind though, I decide to head for democracy first since this empire is pretty cottage heavy.

    1030 AD My second wonder (hanging gardens was first), U of Sankore, completed.

    1040 AD Roosevelt declares on De Gaulle. Rather surprising actually.

    1050 I get mausoleum, De Gaulle loses a city to roosy.

    1090 AP stops the war

    1120 Roosy wants paper ---->ok

    1210 Taj has been completed, I make the switch to emancipation/US, and decide to grab theology to switch to that before GA ends.

    1230 De Gaulle goes after roosy

    1280 GA continues. I get to FM for the free merchant first, and swap to that and theocracy.

    1300 I use a spare scientist on another GA. I complete oxford and have 660 BPT. I'm teching toward rifling, and am starting to mass some CR II maces in my hammer cities. The purpose of this is to upgrade them to CR rifles and get rid of roosevelt.



    1380 I grab rifling.

    1410 Trade mission in persian capitol gets me 12 CR II rifles. I'm just building normal rifles now for support.

    1430 Much later than dankok, I declare my first war, on roosy. First target is atlanta and iron. I'll work my way down from there.



    1440 I have Atlanta. I had an extra GS so I put a bulb into chemistry...I finish astro next turn then can tech chem in 1 turn after that. State property is the name of the game for me...I dont want a lot of micro.

    1480 Statue of Liberty completed

    1510 The war continues, philly goes down. Amazingly with 3 cities america is "still fine on its own". I have to ask danF about this one...they're by far the weakest power they know...



    1515 Have communism, revolt to state property. Workshop cities should take off now. I also trigger another golden age. After biology I'm headed straight to mass media. I have 3 religions, a lot of research, and a lot of hammers. I can put together culture easily after polishing roosy off.

    1545 De Gaulle joins the party. Washington will fall next turn. I've been picking slowly because roosy is so small and I'm teching like mad. 906 BPT.

    1565 I capture Boston, Roosy's last city. Everyone on the continent is jewish and friendly. Mass defensive pact time!



    1575 I begin spreading buddhism, judaism, islam, and taoism around. I will get the modern culture wonders too.

    1590 Electricity in.

    1605 De Gaulle becomes a peaceful vassal.

    1620 DP with Cyrus, HUGE tech lead over rest of world (de gaulle vassaling let me see them).





    1680 I turn off research after railroad. I probably could have turned it off and defended with just rifles, but MGs will hold well past victory.

    1715 Eiffel tower completed.

    1780 My 4th and final GA begins ;).



    1795 I had extra cities, so I built the UN. I realize that if cyrus and de gaulle both vote for me...I win. I focus EP on cyrus. Need to keep him in Organized religion for friendly!

    1804 AP assigns me the city cyrus snuck by way back when ;).

    1812 Well on my way to culture (cities pushing 20K and getting 700/turn), I win a UN diplo victory, solely off my own votes and those of De Gaulle and Cyrus. Game over!





    Very little action needed in this one. Peaceful expansion and fortunate religious spread = easy tech race win. Deleted the buddhist eyesore with CR rifles, normal rifles, and spies, and that was it.


    I got slow...2 hr 24 mins bah :p. Oh well. Save:

    View attachment 194651
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    TheMeInTeam:

    Your game shows exactly what peaceful building and expansion in this game can do. I rather think that you could have won that game culturally without waging war at all. I occasionally have games like that. Knowing how to skillfully manage expansion is the most key skill in going from Noble to Monarch.
     

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