1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Climb the Ladder VI: Montezuma - Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dankok8, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Canada
    Hey guys some of you may remember the Climb The Ladder series. I stopped playing civ until about 2 weeks ago. Crazy busy with school and work but now I have more time so I'm back. :D

    On the bad side, I got kind of rusty being away from civ for so long. I am still only shaky on Emperor, usually winning but often by a hair or due to luck. I feel my major weakness is empire management which those who read my previous games easily figured out. Hopefully, this should be a learning experience as well as tons of fun.

    Settings:

    Fractal - Temperate - Medium sea level - Standard size map - Normal Speed - Emperor Difficulty - Choose Religions. Everything else is default.

    Our Leader:



    Aggressive is a nice warmongering trait especially early on. An axerush is a powerful option if we have Copper nearby. Spiritual gives us a lot of flexibility regarding civics changes which is also good for war.

    UB is the uber-powerful sacrificial altar that halves the amount of whip unhappiness (5 turns instead of 10). However, it comes relatively late but who says you can't whip in the middle ages and beyond especially with Kremlin?

    Our Start:



    Pigs, river/floodplains. It seems like the start has enough food. Don't really know much else. Hopefully you guys will have more suggestions.

    If you decide to shadow the game, please do it in spoilers. :)

    Here is the save:

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CJMN8MGH
     
  2. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,663
    Turn on resource bubbles.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,816
    Move scout in south-southeast type direction (probably 2SE). If you see a good food resource you can grab with 1E, 1E. Otherwise, SIP and research AH. Check back after doing so or play some turns...your call.

    2SE will see if you're missing out on seafood with 1E most likely, and can help drive your settlement plan. An alternative is to move scout 1NW and see if it's worth settling 2N, but you risk missing seafood this way and give up FP. On the other hand, a 2h city tile is always nice, especially in a cap. It's a bit riskier but should speed your initial turns.
     
  4. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Canada
    Round 1: 4000-2360BC

    An intro to what I anticipate will be a very difficult game.

    Tech Order: Animal Husbandry - Agriculture - Mining - Bronze Working

    As the scout moved to the SE, he discovered nothing of importance and said to his master the great Montezuma, reincarnation of the Aztec god of war Quetzalcoatl: "Master, there are no resources to the East". Monty replied "Very well. Settle in place immediately and train some slaves... uhm workers!"



    Tenochtitlan was born.

    Our scout was successful in recovering some Gold:





    But then got to the edge of the continent and the lion moved to one spot to block off all the escape routes. The brave scout was ready to defend...



    He got mauled without scratching the lion. The warrior built from the capital found more shiny coins:



    As Bronze Working was finished, so was the Settler and some Warrior escorts. Here is the situation tech/build:





    Map of the known world:





    I also switched to Slavery just as the round expired.

    Some Thoughts:
    1) Scouting is kind of chaotic but we can see the Copper and the Horses and they are both very far. I'm thinking 1N of the Copper is the best spot.
    2) I think some of our tech priorities should be Fishing (to enable use to work coastal tiles) Wheel (to connect resources) Masonry (we have Stone so I'm thinking Mids?) and Iron Working (to cut down jungle and enable Jags which are great barb defense) in that order
    3) The capital can be a very good production city with plenty of food + mines.
    4) I plan to leverage Slavery with Sac Altars so CoL is a major beeline.
    5) I really really really hope we are not isolated but that is what it looks like now. :(

    What do y'all think?
     
  5. ahcos

    ahcos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    919
    What you want 'mids for? I see grassland and some food resources, expand and cottage everything that gets under montys slimy hands (sorry, but it's still monty...). Even for Isolation Mids are not a must-have. My thoughts:

    a) you should be able to handle barbs easily with AGG Warriors for most of the time, they can only spawn in the north -> spawnbust and it shouldn't be too much of an issue, at least if you dont delay IW forever. Rather avoid archery.
    b) get out a coastal city asap so you can send out a WB to confirm your isolation - or to find other AIs.
    c) settle 4 cities, tech all the basics you need (at least monarchy, alphabet/currency and IW) and settle the remaining cities in the jungle afterwards. Land seems not too bad after all, so that's more than i get in all my isolation games after all ;)
    d) if you really want a wonder, go TGL - all of your future cities will be coastal as there are no good landlocked cities judging by the screens.
     
  6. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    In general, I think ahcos has it spot on as usual. :) FWIW however, I’d actually go for the mids here – even though I agree with ahcos’ point re: they’re not absolutely necessary given the land (which looks much more cottage-able IMHO than it does capable of supporting vast numbers of specialists.) The reason is that getting the mids with stone would not only open up representation (for a beaker and much needed happy boost by the looks of it) but also HR. Granted, you can research monarchy, but why not use the stone to change the way you solve the happy problem – from beakers (researching down the line into monarchy) to hammers (into the ‘mids). That would free you up to invest your (very precious, if you are indeed isolated) beakers into other techs.

    Personally, given that land and what looks like isolation, I’d have settled the fish / stone site first and tried to chop out Stonehenge whilst having that city work a couple of FP cottages to get research under way – some of which it could’ve borrowed from the capital. (Whilst TGW doesn’t look at all necessary here, note that even a GSpy could be settled under representation.) I agree completely though on TGLH here – and given the lack of visible health and happiness resources, may I suggest that maths (for The HG) > currency (as opposed to alpha > currency) and astro (for trades) could be really useful...especially if you can get TGLH.

    Re: your thoughts @dankok8.

    1. If you need the fish to feed the gold (it depends on what’s in the remainder of the fog), I’d likely go for pigs / copper 1S of the pigs – and leave the wheat to feed the horse city.
    2. TW before fishing IMHO to connect up city #2. Given that scouting, I’d actually have been tempted to produce worker #2 before the settler for this reason.
    3. If you’re isolated, I’d think hammers early (if using the stone to build wonders in the capital) and then cottages to propel research.
    4. CoL will help but the espionage points will be wasted if you’re isolated...and do you really want to be whipping cottages, assuming that’s how you develop the land? Maybe the real value of CoL will actually be caste system...depends if you can find a great GP farm under what’s left of the rest of the fog.
    5. Re: the WB that ahcos mentions...what’s that land we can see by the clams NE of the capital?

    EDIT. Re: agriculture. I haven’t done the maths, but I’d have probably ignored agriculture here, electing instead to go something like worker > slow build warrior (working at least one unimproved FP) > warrior > worker > settler. Tech path would’ve been something like AH > mining > TW > masonry > fishing > pottery. The idea would’ve been to grow on the FP whilst building the warriors to get pop to a point at or close to happy cap, where you could work a few of the mines (eg. the two riverside plains and one riverside grassland). Meanwhile, the beakers saved by not teching agriculture would’ve opened up earlier access to techs like masonry and pottery.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,816
    I played this map. I'll post screenshots + later strategy in the future, but for right now:

    1. We're either isolated or don't have a nearby AI
    2. We've a little land but are otherwise south of a jungle belt which needs IW or distance cities to use
    3. We've not much :)
    4. We do have stone

    The biggest opportunity cost of wonders is city sites, with a secondary consideration of tech path to attain them + defenses. When you haven't met ANYONE yet, the odds of losing out on city sites are pretty low. What are mids costing you? Settling a city or two sooner than otherwise...but you'd be settling those cities in the jungle or past them!

    In my run I actually went 2N for plains hill (scout 2SE showed enough ocean where losing seafood was improbable), worker ----> warrior x3 ----> SH ----> settler and had both henge and a 2nd city by around 2200 BC w/o bronze working. Stone city with that settler, then used stone for mids in the capitol while setting up the 2nd city with some cottages ----> workers/settlers.

    The tricky bit on this map is happiness. If you use monarchy + cottages, you're going to be using a LOT of units to bankroll non-FIN cottages...that's slow and painful. Rep is nice but has the dual problem of a hard +3 cap and having that cap limited to 5 cities. Since I went rep, how did I respond? Early-ish metal casting (forge boosts gold) and drama (yes, theater + slider) for a bit until astro trades for resources let me get rid of the culture slider. End :) result:

    2 (resource)
    2 (slider 20%)
    2 (slider with theater)
    3 (top 5 pop cities and the ones most capped by :) )
    4 (base)

    Allowing pop 13 cities and pop 14 capitol. Yes, culture slider makes things a bit less efficient especially with the cottages going, but don't forget that a) there is 0 unit maintenance and b) you are less dependent on the units later when you want to transition in the case of monarchy.

    Had astro by 800-900 AD anyway and caravels explored so the instant I got it resource trades = no more culture slider and a lot of commerce. My micro is pretty bad; someone who bothers planning could do much better with mids although the AI never really could touch my tech pace :p.
     
  8. Killroyan

    Killroyan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,099
    What I always wonder about is why you guys never settle on a river tile. In this case for example 1E would have given you almost the same result in food tiles as now but a whooping +9 hammers with a levee. Is this mainly because early game determines the most of the game?
     
  9. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    @TMIT:
    Spoiler :
    Yeah, happy looks painfully low here. Out of curio, did you:
    (i) Beeline astro before civil service > paper > education etc? Or did you go education first to open up Oxford w/stone?
    (ii) Think about engineering for Notre Dame w/stone (as opposed to drama)? After all, we need machinery for optics > astro, so engineering only needs construction (assuming you go maths > currency). What was it that made you go drama instead...aesthetics for SP and early free religion, or something else - maybe the prospect of a mids GE > GLib from literature?
     
  10. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    @Killroyan: IMHO, early hammers are worth more than late ones. In this case, moving 1E to riverside sees you lose two hills that can be fed with the pigs...and you can use those hammers to build units, wonders etc. In addition, you could see from the opening screenshot that moving 1E lost 1FP (which is a good tile) and put you one off the coast. As TMIT noted, the prospect of checking to see if the coast contained seafood (justifying a move 2E as opposed to 1E) was a factor guiding the potential first move for the scout.
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    actually having 3 hills is fine for capital especially when 2 of them are plains hill after long time I came to decision that working plains hill early game just plainly sucks, except for the rare ocassion where i need to put out work boats for sea food.

    1S from the "after general" standpoint is actually killer. 2x GH, 1 PH, 4x FP and some more grass cottages, what's not to love about this capital?

    and you still didn't kill the fish city which will help to grow cottages while the cap works hills.
     
  12. cbucks

    cbucks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    Sorta half assed a shadow game last night on emperor

    Spoiler :
    Quickly find out we are isolated and stone near capital, settle my second city south, third city near the flood plains, fourth city to work gold, fifth city to work clams near capital and sixth city on the only island. I did manage to pop silver from a mine, which really helped.

    with stone I built mids, glh and TGW. Here is a screen shot at 1ad, I am about to settle the island city.



    I popped a GE and built the GL, ran specialist who're super powered and won lib early 1000's, took nationalism (wasn't sure how far along the others were since I haven't met anyone.

    I slowly filled out the rest of the island, I think 9 cities with room for 2 more marginal ones?

    Worked back through compass, machinery, optics and then whipped caravels and met the other neighbors. Beat Fredrick to astronomy by one turn to get all the good trade routes. Traded like mad to get stuff I hadn't researched yet (calendar!). Here is the tech situation at 1360 - my tech rate kinda sucks because there are zero happy resources and I thought rep was a better (debatable)



    Not sure what to research next. I am laying down workshops so I'm thinking SM then communism then going back to gunpowder, RP and rifling. Build up a navy and attack with cavs and infantry? The game is in the bag I think, but it was slow going till I met the other people and our island truthfully is very sucky.



    I don't even have resources to trade to the others to get health and happy. Oh well.


     
  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Canada
    Thanks a lot for your input. I read through all of it. :)

    Copper/Horse is not a priority at all for barb defense because I have the resourceless (forgot that part) Jags with IW. With WI and 5 strength, they are awesome barb defense/fogbusters. There is also a high probability that Iron will appear nearby as well. Finally, maintenance for the Copper city would kill me this early so I'm thinking the next city is 1SW of the Stone. 3rd city probably 1W1NW of the Gold.

    This probably means Wheel/Masonry come before Fishing and then we go IW. I'll rely on Warriors for fogbusting till then.

    TGL is gonna be tough because capital isn't on the coast. Maybe I'll give it a shot with the Stone city but I think Mids in the capital is a much better bet. Running Rep will keep our science strong for the early bit. After we get the Mids, we REX the rest of the continent while beelining Currency/CoL.
     
  14. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    @dankok8: Agree with second city for fish / stone, but I'd place city #3 amongst the FPs to your capital's NW so it can also work more early cottages and get you self-researching techs. IMHO, gold city is #4. I assume tech is TW > masonry > fishing > pottery > IW?
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,816
    Screenshots (late space win)

    Spoiler :


    I mentioned some strategy above.

    Tech path: After MC/Drama, went civil service (heavy bur cap) to astro. I went back towards lib after that and got it. I transitioned to cottages pretty early, mostly used mids for settled specs. Everyone got to pleased easily so I had virtually no threat to me as I teched toward space. The AI was really slow in this game so despite isolation once I hit the trade-to-parity wave I got far enough out in front that nobody had much to offer. Ended in full bottom civics (env for health even as resources were sparse. Traded some mass media wonder resources for more resources). Createcon was largely a denial move.










     
  16. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Canada
    2360-900BC

    Tech Order: Wheel-Masonry-Fishing-Writing-Pottery-Iron Working (not finished)

    Having decided that city #2 will claim the Stone, the tech priorities were Wheel and Masonry. Wheel would go first.



    Here comes Teotihuacan:





    The city started the Monument but then stopped instead for a Worker for a reason you will soon see. After the cap built another Warrior for fogbusting, it was time to go Settler.



    The Copper also popped up 2N of the capital! This meant Iron Working was not as much of a priority (only needed to cut jungle at this point) and at least Fishing would go next after Masonry.



    Here is a screen that didn't surprise me one bit:



    The road to Teo is complete right before Masonry so our Workers are right there to build the Quarry the next turn:



    Call me crazy but seeing that no wonder was complete this late and that I could complete Stonehenge in 5 turns, I decided to go for it. It would allow my new cities to build more worthwhile things (heck even wealth).



    Seeing that the Settler wouldn't be ready to settle the jungle belt for the next few turns because the cap will be busy with Mids, I decide to get Writing. Libraries are a must to benefit from Rep.



    Tlateloco is founded to get the Gold:



    Stonehenge is done... in 1680BC on Emperor! I consider that a major coup!



    The cap went straight on to the Mids:



    My fogbusters did a great job in the north but couldn't cover the tiny peninsula in the north where barbs spawned like crazy. My Warrior ran to the forest and fought of this assault before succumbing to an Archer:



    IN 1120BC, tada!!



    Wasted only one chop (and one for SH) so I still have plenty of forests in the capital. The city built a Library and then started on a Settler.



    I converted to Rep and went OUT of Slavery. I won't use for the next few turns so no point of risking a revolt. I'm Spiritual but the Aztec people can relax a bit until a bit later anyways. ;)



    Here are the cities:

    Teno - I shall groom it into a nice production capital


    Teo - Commerce/hybrid city


    I have no screenie for Tla but nothing to see there. It's working that Gold mine until the Fish is improved so it can grow quickly.

    Empire:





    Tech:



    Military:



    Some Thoughts:
    1) Planning to use a GE from the Mids for the GLH if available. If not GL.
    2) I could maybe still get the GLH. I only need Sailing and Great Wall only got built a few turns ago so it's certainly doable in Tla which has lots of forests I can chop. I'm just not sure if worthwhile. I'm leaning towards not doing it. I think the comparative benefit of settling more cities and improving the land is larger.
    3) Could I go culture? Cheap temples, can build some Wonders, beeline Music? Just a thought but it would be a rare Culture win for me. Then again getting religions will be tough unless I'm first to CoL.
    4) Next round is REXing the island and beelining CoL.
    5) Also will build a WB to confirm if we are really completely isolated.

    Anything I forgot?
     
  17. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    Nice turnset. :goodjob: Well done on getting Stonehenge, that’s a real bonus this late.

    Re: your points.

    1. Agreed.
    2. IMHO, TGLH would be huge here since, as ahcos noted a while back, all your cities look as if they’re going to be coastal. Although I understand your point re: the desire for land, the capital can now produce workers (which you’ll need a few of, to clear that jungle) and settlers now that the mids are up. You also have a few forests you can chop just outside the capital’s BFC (eg. 3E and 2NW1N if you settle there) to speed up production.
    3. IMHO, culture will be tricky here, given the lack of early religion spread and absence of a great artist spamming GP farm. As TMIT has mentioned, space is certainly do-able. If you want to be more aggressive, perhaps consider drafting or using The Kremlin to rush buy an army for some kind of diplomation.
    4. OK – although I still think the UB will be under-used given this start.
    5. Absolutely.
     
  18. LuCiver

    LuCiver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    267
    Number 4 should be "beeline something that solves the happy cap problem".
     
  19. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Canada
    Well building the Mids means I can run Rep which helps a bit. Calendar is kind of useless since I have no Calendar resources whatsoever as is Monarchy since I can already run HR and have no Wine. HR I wouldn't run though since I would have to spam lots of units to make it better than Rep. Drama lets me run the Culture slider but that seems costly. Construction I'll get because that enables Colosseums but it seems like a small fix if anything.

    I might have to suck up much of the unhappiness until I can trade for resources. It's not too bad since I will run plenty of specialists either way so cities won't grow that much.
     
  20. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,226
    Great lighthouse is not useful until you get international traderoutes.

    Get some riverside cottages up, your happy cap won't support flood plain farms.

    The big question is whether you go straight for astronomy or get some tech like code of laws or alphabet first.
     

Share This Page