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[RD] Clinton vs. Trump - USA Presidential race.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by onejayhawk, Mar 23, 2016.

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  1. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    Clinton has medical troubles at a campaign event. The campaign makes up lies about it, saying it was fatigue when it was pneumonia.

    Why lie?
     
  2. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Chieftain

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    I assume they lied because they hoped she'd get better in the next few days without having to make it public. Pneumonia sounds far worse than fatigue
     
  3. mrt144

    mrt144 Chieftain

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    https://twitter.com/justin_kanew/status/775458888950878208

    So Kentucky Governor calls for armed revolution if Hillary is elected. Implicitly through the talk of the tree of liberty being watered by bloodshed of patriots.

    So now Republicans are now a white nationalist separatist movement.
     
  4. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    This misses the point. If they (1) want change and (2) are willing to tolerate Trump, then changing them to Clinton will be difficult. Hillary essentially admitted that she had little chance of converting anyone already in the Trump camp. The reverse is not true.

    This is the Clinton campaign. It's what they do.

    Is that supposed to be better? If a third party did not get video, we would never have known of the collapse. Parallels to tabloids and the Monica situation.

    J
     
  5. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I have made an observation about the upcoming elections and would like to hear, from American voters, if it rings true with them.

    When Bill Clinton ran for presidency, a lot of Republican voters, matter of fact a lot of members of the GOP voted Clinton in spite of never having voted democrat in their entire life. That was after years upon years of neo-conservatist rule in which presidents were lead on by the people that learned under Leo Strauss and their allies, among them Cheney, Irving Kristol, Bill Casey, Paul Wolfowitz, Michael Lind, Michael Ledeen and many, many others.

    After Clinton was elected with the help of some of the GOP voter-base the neo-cons ran just about the most vile media campaign against Clinton, absolutely based on nothing at all. But it took its toll on the president, he lost control of economics and gave more and more power away to people he really shouldn't have trusted. He was psychologically stressed out and, after the Lewinski incident and the unsuccessful impeachment, had little chances to win the next election.

    Honestly, I see the same effect with people from the Republican party voting for Hillary this election, just to prevent Trump from becoming president, even though they don't agree with Hillary at all.

    Now what I am asking myself is the following: What about all these neo-cons, especially those that are still relevant, like Wolfowitz who served under Bush Jr. iirc.? How successful is their media campaign going to be and could it in this case maybe cost Hillary Clinton the election, not just the presidency?

    You are completely right on everything and if you view my last two posts you will find that I never disagreed on anything.

    I did not claim that Hitler's racism was opportunistic, but rather the that the racism in national socialism, the ideology, was often opportunistic. Hitler was probably one of the view higher-ups in the Nazi party that actually believed all of the völkisch; mysticist; pseudescientific biological racism garbage. Because everyone with a brain can look at the most important people in the Nazi party and easily see that close to none of them were blond and blue eyed. Hitler's personal doctor was a jew :lol: I think the antisemitism was genuine throughout the entire NSDAP, but I do not believe that leading German intellectuals actually thought of the Chinese, Japanese and Turkish peoples as aryan, or even viewed them in a positive light. I'm actually pretty certain that a decent amount of leading scientists knew that some of what they were doing - measuring skulls and all that, I'm sure I don't have to explain - was just pseudoscience.
     
  6. whyidie

    whyidie Chieftain

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    Just to expand on this, they had 4 months during which they had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. It was during this time ACA was passed. This lead to Reid going "nuclear".

    Its checks and balances you don't like. You seem to want grand, immediate change. Exceedingly rare.

    Presidents do matter though. Obamas domestic policies have and will continue to have lasting impact.

    His foreign policy is more of a mixed bag and even more dependent upon the next administration moving the ball down the field. But I'd argue that between Cuba (to a lesser extent Latin America), Iran, Russia, and the Asian pivot it has the potential to be one of the most significant administrations ever.
     
  7. kramerfan86

    kramerfan86 Chieftain

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    Despite Trump being an appalling candidate who spotted Clinton a near double digit lead she is going to manage to lose this by running a laughably incompetent campaign. Unbelievable, she frankly deserves to lose at this point for being so incompetent
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Despite all the dodging there has never really been any doubt what the lunatic fringe means when they say "take back our country."
     
  9. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It's a fairly mainstream opinion, all told. It's just not one that can stand actual scrutiny. It works a lot more than the theorists realize, too.
    I didn't say it was unreasonable. I just said it wasn't Free Market. Most people who think they're of the Free Market bent are in favour of certain types of Eminent Domain, too. They just rationalize it, though.
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    :dunno:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14436510&postcount=4069

     
  11. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    The campaign didn't lie about anything, they said she got woozy from heat exhaustion and dehydration, which is exactly what happened.

    From the questioning of Robby Mook and others on Monday, it seems like the campaign didn't release the pneumonia diagnosis on Friday, because they didn't learn of it until after the episode on Sunday. I can only hope her staff is going to sit her down and explain that she absolutely has to be transparent on these things from now on.
     
  12. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I am curious, what point did it miss?
     
  13. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Everyone agrees that anyone who hasn't been disgusted by Trump yet probably never will be.

    If you are a racist, there's no question that you want Trump elevated to birther-in-chief.

    If you are a misogynist there's no question that you want a president who thinks women are pigs governed only by their menstruation.

    If you are an Islamophobe there's no question you want a president who will institute unconstitutional religious persecution of Muslims.

    If you are in the minority that "knows best" and wants to "take your country back" from the majority there's no question that you support the candidate who favors autocracy, as long as the opponents he wants to lock up are the same ones you want to lock up or beat up.

    There is some question about what portion of Trump supporters are in the basket of deplorables, but without question that basket is in Trump's hands.
     
  14. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    You quoted it.

    J
     
  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Maybe you don't understand what the phrase "missed the point" means?
     
  16. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    In reply to:

    Your first paragraph)

    I fully agree, hence why I also talked about the economic policies of the NSDAP, how they changed completely after the Röhm-Putsch and what they were like during Hitler's reign.

    Your second paragraph)

    I do see some similarities here, especially when I think back about how several republicans have already publicly admitted that they will engage in violent conflict should Hillary win.

    However we need to distinct here. Hitler never attempted to win democratically. Of course he would not mind it, but that is beyond the point. From the inception of the Sturmabteilung they had been raiding streets, terrorizing people, especially during elections: Beating them brutally, some beaten to death, attacking jewish stores, purposefully targetting leftists and communists to stop them from casting their vote. This intensified with time. There is a reason why Hitler went to jail in the 20s.

    I do not see Trump supporters clubbing down democrats en masse - Though iirc it did happen at a few rallies, but that is hardly comparable at all, no?

    Your third paragraph)

    I can't really argue with you here, I think you are correct that they are similar in this regard. Trump has, in a few cases already, said things that made me very doubtful about him being supportive of democracy as a system or the institutions that carry it. Furthermore one of his main appeals is being an "outsider to Washington".

    Your fourth paragraph)

    I wouldn't say being a strongman is his "single" appeal; I also do not see him as all that strong and I think some people would agree with me. Hitler was seen as an actual intellectual, a soldier, an artist, a politician, a theoretician on race; While Trump is not seen as very bright by just about anybody. I don't think his voter base thinks of Trump as stupid, but they think of him as "on their level", if anything. That is, after all, one of his appeals, would you not agree?

    Furthermore, I can think of a dozen of GOP presidential nominees who attempted to be a strongman like Trump was and I'm sure you could, too. There is nothing inherently national socialist about being a strongman, as proven by Putin, Sadam, Stalin, Mao, Kim Il-Sung and many other leaders throughout history. It isn't even necessarily fascist in itself, even though it is an important part of fascist ideology and all fascist leaders are necessarily strongmen. It just doesn't work the other way around.

    Your fifth paragraph)

    The "formula" as you call it is the same for sure, but it is also the exact same formula that all neoconservatives ever have applied. In fact Leo Strauss would argue that this fear, this division of the entire world into "good" and "bad", be it racially, religiously, or ideologically based, is necessary for the community to hold together. This formula of fear, constricting said fear with oneself to create a simple, understandable dichotomy is used by just about every single alt-right force in Europe.

    I do agree that an anti-jewish conspiracy could never bolster enough support in this time in America, I would even go as far and say that you are right about his denouncement of democracy and its institutions being downright fascist. Furthermore, you are correct about the Italians missing the racial aspect of Nazism, especially in the early rule of Mussolini he had a lot of jewish supporters. However your equation of racism + fascism = nazism does feel overly simplified. As you already mentioned in the first paragraph, Nazism is not just antisemitism, racism and state fascism combined, Nazism carries a very specific set of rules for economic and social policies. Such as the Nürnberger Rassengesetze, Euthanasia, Eugenics and Social Darwinism I do not see in Trump at all, much rather plain Xenophobia and Islamophobia, as I have already stated. These elements seem very central to the national socialist ideology to me, especially eugenics and social darwinism seem to be core beliefs, at least to me, as a German ;)

    Thank you very much for the elaborate discussion and for replying so in-depth, I very, very much appreciate it. Hope you have a good day :)
     
  17. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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  18. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Question here.

    Do you think Trump is trying to win democratically? Yes, he is running for president in the once every four years campaign, and as you say about Hitler I'm sure he wouldn't mind winning. But if you look at his campaign does it not seem more like the opening move in a long game than an actual presidential campaign?
     
  19. mrt144

    mrt144 Chieftain

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    http://kuow.org/post/im-terrified-trump-supporters-call-telling-me-go-home

    How soon before we have our Night of Broken Glass moment in America?
     
  20. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    In essence, yes: but I'd argue that as a whole national socialism was not opportunistic in its racism. The main reason for this, which I've gathered through reading too many books on the Third Reich and the war in Europe to count, is that the racial policies were pursued even to the detriment of the war effort. So the anti-Slav racism was a serious impediment to proper economic exploitation of the conquered East in 1941-43, while the Holocaust actively consumed resources (rolling stock, police, soldiers, administrative resources, construction materials, etc. to say nothing of the people who were killed instead of allowed to contribute) that would have been better used against the Soviet Union.

    That being said of course there were plenty of individual Nazis who were by no means vicious racists, but were perfectly willing to take advantage of the situation for advancement in the state or Party hierarchy and/or personal enrichment.

    It's important to remember that the 'baseline' view in 1920s, 30s, 40s Europe was shockingly racist by today's standards. So even folks who were 'progressives' on racial issues by the standards of the time were racist as hell by today's standards. Indeed, a big part of the reason those standards have moved so much since then is the Bad Example provided by the Nazis.

    I have emphasized this point myself in the past. By the standards of Europe between the wars, Trump's Republican Party is quite "respectable" and bourgeois. There is nothing even close to the disciplined, well-armed paramilitary organizations which most of the major fascist parties had at their disposal.

    The violence we've seen from Trump's supporters is worrying, but unorganized and spasmodic.

    All that said I fundamentally agree with metalhead that the Nazi comparisons are accurate, though I do think that using them is politically self-harming (even though I've done it myself plenty of times in the past).
     
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