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[RD] Clinton vs. Trump - USA Presidential race.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by onejayhawk, Mar 23, 2016.

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  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    The bolded is the key word though right? The Republican party needs an overhaul to be viable in Presidential elections. A 400 EV walloping is just what the doctor ordered to get the party moving in that direction. I agree that a robust debate between two parties offering viable, productive plans is where we want to get to... but our media treating Trump's inane ranting and shallow sloganeering as if it was anything but... just to "have a close game" doesn't help at all. They serve us all much better by making a fool of him for taking ridiculous positions and not having any coherent polies. That way the next person who runs may do a better job of having actual plans.
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Good example too. I wonder if it has anything to do with his inclination to just not let go when he thinks he is right about something, even when presented with unambiguous evidence to the contrary (e.g. Central Park Five). These things have probably bothered him for a long time, and he's glad that there's finally a loyal audience ready to agree with him.
     
  3. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    You are disingenuous. Many of the items have made the news. Hillary had an email server in violation of several laws. Director Comey said as much. Bill Clinton was impeached for Obstruction and Perjury.

    Start there and run through the selling of influence, obstructing investigations, witness tampering, you know, the usual list of a corrupt politician. Rather than believe that the stories are politically motivated, consider that they might be generally true and just the tip of an iceberg.

    J
     
  4. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    You know, I think so much of Trump's persona and behavior is that of an extremely lonely person. He has hung onto things like this for so long because he has had nobody to actually talk to about them. I mean sure, people would grant him TV interviews, but there's no feedback there, no validation, and certainly none of the positive vibes he gets from a crows simply by ranting about something. His wives and children view him as nothing more than an ATM, and the sycophants surrounding him feel the same way. For the first time perhaps ever, maybe even going back to when he was a kid, he has people actually listening to and affirming what he has to say.

    Think about it, the way he relitigates all of the real and imagined slights in front of his rally crowds that he has received from Paul Ryan, from Khizr Khan, from whomever sound an awful lot like what a person might unload on a spouse at the end of a bad day. I think it's as much about simply having people willing to listen, as it is people willing to affirm. Do you think Melania wants to spend her time listening to the man-baby whine about how his hairspray doesn't work as well?
     
  5. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    How is it disingenuous? You said they committed felonies. So tell me which felonies they've committed. It's a simple question.

    Please provide the quote upon which you are basing this, because my understanding is that he said there was no evidence she broke the law.

    And as you are probably aware, the impeachment failed. He was never tried criminally for either of those crimes. He is also Bill, and not "the Clintons," so that still doesn't prove your claim.

    I've heard the stories. What I'm asking you to do is point to specific things they have done and what laws those actions have violated. If you're going to accuse people of committing felonies, it's usually a good idea to be able to identify the actual crime they're committing, and what behavior you believe rises to the level of the crime. Otherwise, you're just throwing around baseless garbage that can't possibly be taken seriously.
     
  6. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    What we have here is a serious case of selective memory. He was impeached in the House for obstruction and perjury--of repeated probes into his sex life. And that wasn't even sexual assault.

    Tables turn, different party: Trump gets video evidence and 11 accusers of sexual assault. You know, that stuff that ruined Bill Cosby, $60 million NCAA fine on Penn State, Julian Assange is currently holed up in the Ecuador embassy because of just TWO accusers, I could go on and on.... Not only do you not want to impeach him: you vote for him.

    Ken Starr himself--the lead prosecutor probing into Bill's sex life--just got fired from his job for failing to investigate repeated incidents of sexual assault. This year.

    The hypocrisy is sickening.
     
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  7. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    IT DID??? Next you're gonna tell me the World Trade Center collapsed, or that there is an African-American President.
     
  8. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    It's just word spin. I'll just say it for him: Bill Clinton was impeached in the House, he WAS tried in the Senate, and he was exonerated. There you go.

    We can throw in some word spin allegations onto Bill Clinton, too--for mincing the meaning of "is" and "sexual relations". Meanwhile, while all eyes are looking to the left, to the right you've got clear-cut, involuntary sexual assault going on--by a married man--on a married woman. Hey, let's vote him in! Because what Bill Clinton did (who isn't even running for office) is so bad!
     
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  9. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    My comment that sparked this was one that said what has maddened me is both Trump and the media coverage of Trump (far more the former, yes). I wasn't faulting the "refs" (media) for minimizing Trump's deficiencies in order to have a close game. The media I've watched has worked sufficiently hard to pin him down to being a normal candidate and implicitly or explicitly faulted him for not coming up to that standard. There are elements of the media that I think favor a close game, but I think those operate mostly unconsciously and as a larger group-think dynamic by which society at large wants a close game rather than a blow out. Yes. In this contest, I want the refs to call every foul on the offending team, so that the next team to play my team will play a better game.

    By the way, Morning Joe had two great commentators this morning. Ann Marie Cox, who is associated with MTV (?) has written a piece that shows how Trump's slipperiness on this point has impacted everyone involved (Clinton camp and media). And she uses precisely this analogy of refs officiating a game.

    MSNBC and CNN both had on in recent days a guy who has written a biography of Trump. Sorry, don't remember his name. He said that as he ended his interviews with Trump to write the book, he actually felt so bad for Trump for having this yawning pit of no self-esteem that "even though I was only a middle-class guy, I wanted to give him something." Early on in my own psychological analysis of the guy, I said that I would find him pitiable--if he wasn't so dangerous.

    I once wanted to post a topic on these forums: "Would you take Trump's wealth, if to get it you had to be Trump?" (That was right about the time we were directed to put all of our Trump commentary in this thread.) My own answer would "no." He seems to me an absolutely miserable person. To take a small point, he doesn't use his wealth to dine well. I've taken to joking that I eat better than a billionaire (simply by virtue of the fact that I don't eat KFC). Chuck Todd was noting in advance of the Al Smith dinner something that I'd noticed: he'd never seen Donald laugh.

    Sad, but also sad that his outsized resources mean that he's drawn so many Americans (and the whole fabric of our republic) into the vortex of his self-loathing.

    2) As an ATM, and as a "boy." Melania said in her recent interview that she has "two boys," Barron and Donald. Sad if your own wife thinks of you as a little boy.
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    As an aside, I'm pretty sure Starr endorses Clinton ... think about what would be necessary to change his mind ...
     
  11. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    Against all the heat emanating from my hatred of Donald Trump that burns hotter than the core of a thousand blazing suns, I honestly feel sorry for him. I don't think his family cares a wit for him, and the fact that he appears to be an emotionless monster completely lacking in empathy could largely be a product of how he was raised. I know it's cliche to posit the comedian who craves affirmation because they are miserable inside, but that's how I view Donald Trump, except he doesn't have the intelligence or wit to be funny. So he gains affirmation by tearing down the weak, by preying on women, and by saying things that are outside the social norm because he knows people will react to it.

    Don't get me wrong, I of all people fully recognize that in the end this makes him a terrible human being. Somewhere along the way a person becomes responsible for their own brokenness if they don't take some ownership of it. But even in spite of myself, I pity him and the extraordinarily sad and lonely life he must lead, where the only way he gets anyone, even his own children, to spend time with him is through promises of money or power.
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    ^You should wait for all the love produced as a result of the world war to come with Hillary. It will be literally heart-melting :D
    Joking aside, though, you do know there will be a few more wars with Hillary as your president, right? Will you support them due to reasons?
     
  13. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    I know nothing of the sort. I am sure there will be military engagements I disapprove of, but it's idiotic to simply assume one or the other of the candidates will engage in "a few wars." One has shown far greater understanding of the folly of a ground war in the Middle East than the other, so I'd say I'm more comfortable with her in charge.
     
  14. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    When you say "a few wars", do you mean "a few more wars than if Trump is elected?"
    Thought I must say, it's nice seeing the extreme Right become less hawkish
     
  15. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Sure. Yet those "military engagements" you "disapprove of", will still cost the lives of people there, and create mayhem in their countries ala Libya and Syria, both of which have the stamp of the latest dem gov as well, and Hillary.
    I think that many USians don't quite get just how against all those wars and interventions most reasonable europeans are. In Europe it would seem that indeed only the lamest hawks support them. Eg in Britain Blair is pretty much tarnished due to his support of the Iraq war, in a manner which never exists for W or to any extent (even much smaller would be fine) for Obama/Hillary, as if they are logical when it comes to war cause they just ruined 2 countries instead of the bigger chaos W caused.
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    I took a gander at Dinesh D'Souza's "2016: Obama's America", I thought it surprisingly, watchable albeit piece of sourceless propaganda... chock full of doomsday predictions of what would happen if this dangerous liberal Democrat was re-elected... Unsurprisingly, none of it happened. Doomsday predictions of what will happen if we elect Hillary are even more yawn-worthy.

    "Hillary will start WW3!! Save Yourselves before its too late!! Vote Trump Instead!!":mad:

    Sure... whatever you say;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
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  17. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    You all over there started the whole Libya mess, for the love of god stop blaming it on us :mad:
     
  18. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

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    Not just that, but this looks like an attempt to absolve Europeans of the blame. We were the ones pushing for that intervention!
     
  19. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Oh no, haven't you heard? Every war that has ever taken place is always somehow the US's fault.
     
  20. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    USA Today today has a feature on the chillingly high percentage of Republicans who will not regard the election as valid if Hillary wins (even higher when the group is "Trump supporters," but distressingly high even when it is just Republicans). One guy they interviewed is buying up ammo because, if she is elected (?, what's the word for "appointed as a result of a rigged system"?), she will be coming to take away our guns.

    (Now I have to acknowledge that in voting against Trump, I am partly motivated by the doomsday scenario of his starting WWIII in a fit of pique over some imagined slight from some foreign leader. So doomsday scenarios are being used to motivate voters on both sides.)

    But what I wished for when I read the USA Today story was precisely a listing of all the imagined scenarios, so that when they hadn't come true by the end of her tenure, one could point to them and say to the likes of this guy, "see, she didn't take away your guns after all." I know that kind of thing never sets paranoiacs at ease; they'll always just project their anxiety forward and it'll be the next Democrat that will actually be the one to come take away their guns. But still, we've gotten so "wee-wee'd up," as Obama once put it. I don't know how long we can keep living with this sense that everything is about to utterly collapse.

    We've been talking about the degree to which we can pity Trump amid our hatred of him. It's this last thing, questioning the legitimacy of our electoral process, that has really gotten under my skin. In effect, (assuming a Hillary win) he'll have done it to two consecutive presidents. And, it looks like, even more comprehensively with Hillary than he managed to do with Obama. When that comes on top the disputed election of 2000, we'll now have three presidents in a row whose very legitimacy in the office is under one sort of question or another. That can't be good for our republic. Trump wasn't responsible for the first, but he's directly responsible for the second and third, so I'm having trouble right now viewing him as anything but pure evil--for that level of corrosiveness of our basic institutions--rather than finding anything to pity in his colossal lack of self-worth.
     
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