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Closing ranks: The onset of a clash of civilizations

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by aelf, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I get the sense that the distinction that was being gone for is "whites" and "non-whites"... or maybe more specifically, "whites" and "Turks/middle easterners/north Africans/southern Asians who-I-think-look-like-Arabs"
     
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  2. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Do we need to go there, or to try to obfuscate the discussion with meaningless semantic discussions about what "European" or "Muslim" mean?

    The point that was made is that there are huge cultural differences between say Germans and the millions of mostly young males from Muslim - majority countries that were allowed to enter and reside in Germany without any checks. This part is no doubt true, and trying to debate it is for cretins.

    It was then implied that this is problematic. This is of course a value judgement and can be debated. But there's no need to get into meaningless semantic discussions to do so.
     
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  3. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Except the discussion, or at least where this discussion has moved over the last dozen or so posts, has been an argument that "Christians and Muslims have never gotten along", so it seems to me that a definition of what is meant by Christian and what is meant by Muslim is entirely core to the issue. Because if Moors are Muslims and Bosnians are Muslims and Turks are Muslims, then the strength of the argument changes rather materially. And if the argument then is that "Arabs and Europeans have never gotten along" - a spurious argument in its own right, then why not specify in that manner in the first place?
     
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  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Yes. It seems clear to me that apart from isolated nutcases e.g. the westboro baptists, Muslims are a racialized Other rather than religious Other.
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Part of the problem is, the people pushing the "Clash of Civilisations" narrative don't make any clear distinction between "white", "European" and "Christian" on the one hand, and "brown", "Asian" and "Muslim" on the other. And deliberately so, I think; it's not that they regard these categories as literally interchangeable, but that they're all different ways of framing the more basic categories of Us and Them, of contrasting Here to There, and they shift their terms depending on the immediate needs of the argument, or to play to your audience. The ambiguity is a feature, not a bug.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  6. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    And "Western" is in the mix, too. We saw this when one of them posted his manifesto a while back. I pushed him on what elements of "Western" culture did he really admire. Was he a Schubert fan? Did he read Jane Austen? Nothing. But the manifesto had stuff about white people not having enough babies, relative to brown people. So Western basically equals white. But provides a dodge from having to say directly that what you support is white people.
     
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  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Apropos of this, it's probably already been brought up but that recent archaeological find suggests that there may have been viking muslims.
     
  8. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Because obviously as all generalizations such as saying that "muslims and Europeans never got along" or "Arabs and Europeans never got along" is wrong. Nevertheless, the underlying argument is that there is and has always been a lot of tension between the Muslim world and the Christian world, which often exploded in extraordinarily violent ways. I mean, literally as soon as their rivals in the Arab peninsula were defeated, Muslims launched a religious war of conquest against Christian lands from the Levant to Spain. This conflict was a perennial feature of the Mediterranean for centuries, and a lot of the consequences persist to this day. Indeed examples like Albanians and Bosniaks, who are for the most part Muslim and European, are a testament to this heritage of conflict. It's not like these are places free from ethnic and religious strife.

    Also, this whole reduction of the argument to one of "whites" vs "browns" is a ridiculous American take on an European situation. Obviously many whites are from a totally different culture, and their immigration and integration into Western countries can be just as problematic as that of "browns". A clear example are the Roma from Romania and other Eastern European countries, many of them blonde and blue eyed. Yet their integration into say France is atrocious, they often live in extremely dirty slums and are way over represented in criminal stats. So we're talking of white European people (who are not Muslim) whose enormous cultural differences from western countries makes their integration into these countries very difficult, which is why the vast majority of westerners are weary of mass immigration from Roma (as they are also weary of mass immigration from Middle Easterns).
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  9. Takhisis

    Takhisis brown-haired beauty

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    The problem is that there are people in both ‘the (Middle) East’ and ‘the West’ who want to make the inevitable happen. And so one side expels the other's minorities and the other welcomes them and permanently uproots them rather than demand their right to live in their homelands. Lebanon used to have a Christian majority. The Rohingyas are expelled from Burma into Bangladesh. Assyrians and Kurds are expelled from Mesopotamia even if they've been promised autonomy, referenda and even full statehood time and again. On their part the US and others try to limit the entry of Muslin immigrints (as well as Spexicans, on another front). Ready-set-go.
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Are you seriously trying to argue that the Roma are not racialized?
     
  11. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    They are racialized in the way that Germans or Portuguese are racialized. They are considered a distinct people, but a white European people nevertheless. Because, well, they are white European. They are just considered much more problematic as immigrants than Germans or Portuguese.
     
  12. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I don't think that's true at all. You're making the mistake of assuming that racism proceeds from race, rather than the other way around.
     
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  13. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I'm not taking about racism. There certainly is racism against the Roma. They just happen to be white and European (at least the Romanian ones living in France).
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Which is a perfect illustration of the point Lex is making.
     
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  15. Takhisis

    Takhisis brown-haired beauty

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    No, luiz, no. To have white skin and citizenship of a European (Union) country is not enough, even in this day and age.

    This article is from September 2010:

    Roma and the E.U.
    By JAMES A. GOLDSTON

    Don’t lie to Viviane Reding. That’s the lesson of this week’s revelation that, contrary to French government assurances that “specific ethnic groups had not been targeted in France,” an Interior Ministry circular had in fact ordered evacuation of camps of “Roma, as a matter of priority.”

    Visibly enraged, the European Union’s commissioner for justice, fundamental rights and citizenship pronounced herself “personally convinced that the commission will have no choice but to initiate infringement action against France.”

    The commission’s wake-up call to racism in France is welcome. But will outrage lead to legal action? And what about the wave of anti-Roma measures in other E.U. states that the commission has steadfastly ignored until now?

    The time it has taken for the commission to react suggests observers should hold their applause. After all, until just a few days ago, commission officials were saying they saw “no intention to target action against the Roma” in France, despite abundant evidence to the contrary.

    The French expulsions were publicly launched in late July at the highest levels of the government after a clash between Roma and police in the Loire Valley that led to the shooting death of a youth. President Nicolas Sarkozy proclaimed that those responsible for the clash would be “severely punished” and ordered the government to expel all Roma immigrants.


    And then again in 2015:
    France's War on the Roma
    By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

    Despite repeated warnings from the European Union, the United Nations and human rights groups, France continues to persecute the Roma. Last Thursday, about 300 people were evicted from Le Samaritain, a Roma camp in the Paris banlieue of La Courneuve. The fate of Le Samaritain was hardly unique — the French government has been forcibly evicting Roma for years — but the particulars of this case speak volumes about France’s cynical attitude toward the Roma.

    Under the government of President François Hollande, forced evictions of Roma, also known as Gypsies, have exploded. More than 19,000 Roma were evicted in France in 2013, twice as many as in 2012. The European Roma Rights Center documented another 13,483 Roma evicted in France in 2014, and the evictions have continued this year at a rate of 150 per week. In June, the United Nations slammed France on its treatment of the Roma, and called for France to improve the Roma’s housing conditions, provide “on a systematic basis” alternative lodging for Roma evicted from camps, and redouble efforts to keep Roma children in school.

    None of these recommendations were respected when authorities moved in to evacuate Le Samaritain. Established in 2008, it was France’s oldest Roma camp. It enjoyed support from various community and nonprofit groups and had even been proposed for entry in an architectural competition on temporary structures. The groups had a proposal to help residents assimilate into French society and move out of the slum over the next few years. Children at the camp were enrolled in school. A quarter of the adults held regular jobs.

    Despite all this, on Aug. 6 a policeman reportedly told residents of Le Samaritain that the camp had to be cleared before the December COP 21 international climate change meeting, slated to take place a few kilometers away in Le Bourget. The residents were stunned. Jozsef Farkas, a plucky 17-year-old who grew up in Le Samaritain, launched a protest petition on Change.org that garnered more than 38,000 signatures. On Aug. 27, just days before the new school year was set to begin, police moved in to evict. Clearly, Roma shantytowns are a blot on France’s image — but that stain just became darker with the eviction of Roma from Le Samaritain.​

    In December last year there was yet another court ruling (by a French court) that there is no legal basis for teachers and headmasters to bar gypsies/Roma/sundry other names from enrolling at school (I've lost the URL for the article). Which hasn't stopped them at all as far as I've found out, although since the new school year started I have had little time to keep checking.
     
  16. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Then why are you using the example of the roma to prove the point that the ossue with Muslims can't be racism?
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Gah, Lex his point is so clear and logical, even a caveman could understand it. The fact that French whites are racists towards Roma whites is clear evidence that the hatred for "Muslims", AKA "Turks/middle easterners/north Africans/southern Asians who-I-think-look-like-Arabs" is not racism, because if it was racism then the racism would only be targeted at the "Muslims" for being "Turks/middle easterners/north Africans/southern Asians who-I-think-look-like-Arabs"... but instead the racism is also targeted at other whites, which proves its not racism, because it can't be racism if its targeted at other whites too, cause they're the same race. :crazyeye:

    Got it?

    To illustrate... Everyone knows that you can't possibly be racist against your own race, that's why if you say something racist about black people and you can find one black person on the internet who agrees, then your statement is not racist because its not possible for a black person to be racist against black people... Jeez Lex, I thought you knew that.
    Spoiler :
    :p
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
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  18. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Well, it can be broadly defined racism, but it's not one of "us vs brown people". It's cultural tension first and foremost. A majority of Europeans is opposed to Muslim immigration, but only a small minority cares about ethnicity.

    So the case of Muslims is the same with the Roma. It's not that they're brown or non European. Roma are neither. It's that the culture(s) of both groups is seen is incompatible with that of western European countries.
     
  19. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    That's the biggest amount of nonsense and misinterpretation I've read in a while.
     
  20. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Yeah, I hear that a lot...
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017

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