qoou
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,991
Isn't that the entire point of ATLs, which were a big driving force in the creation of modern NESing? You NES-revisionist Nazi you.
CNES: The Flames of War (BETA)
- Thread starter Crezth
- Start date
Isn't that the entire point of ATLs, which were a big driving force in the creation of modern NESing? You NES-revisionist Nazi you.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Really now, because I remember history a little differently. The addition of an attempt at a coherent story was your idea, and you were only tasked with doing this because in a week's span Crezth received a total of three backstories [of rather dubious seriousness compared to the tone of your first post], indicating a relative lack of interest in the endeavor compared to other discussion of the project up to that point. In addition, it was never said that people were not free to continue making cultural submissions if they approached you about it; that this did not happen either indicates a lack of interest in the whole thing by everyone else or poor communication on your part as the project lead.
In any case, the addition of such as a design choice clearly was your initiative, not Crezth's, and it's reflected in his lack of attention in his modding to something he was only questionably interested in.
tl;dr: if you want a game to follow your design philosophy, you should probably mod it yourself
That's the irony isn't it?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
A week's? More like a day's. Look at the post dates yourself, it was LITERALLY A DAY AND A HALF. A smart guy like you should be able to count.
You're just such an a**hole about everything in this game, Kraz, and you're consistently ruining it for everyone else. Players like Iggy, Daftpanzer, ChiefDesigner, lj, and myself. Crezth was initially interested in a lighthearted but coherent backstory to support the project, until you browbeat him into abandoning his support for a backstory entirely.
The key passage:
I definitely wasn't consulted. I don't think Iggy was consulted. Which begs the question, who was consulted? We all know the answer to that is you, kraznaya. If Crezth wants to come on here and correct me, he's free to, but in his own words, Crezth's initial conception for the backstory was more player-inclusive than what it ultimately developed into under your influence. Crezth isn't the type to be lying to please the rabid storyist mob.
I don't really feel like arguing much more than I already have. Suffice to say, you're burning a lot of bridges here by behaving like such a raging douche. It'll be extremely satisfying for all of us when you lose despite all of your l33t math skillz.
You're just such an a**hole about everything in this game, Kraz, and you're consistently ruining it for everyone else. Players like Iggy, Daftpanzer, ChiefDesigner, lj, and myself. Crezth was initially interested in a lighthearted but coherent backstory to support the project, until you browbeat him into abandoning his support for a backstory entirely.
The key passage:
I definitely wasn't consulted. I don't think Iggy was consulted. Which begs the question, who was consulted? We all know the answer to that is you, kraznaya. If Crezth wants to come on here and correct me, he's free to, but in his own words, Crezth's initial conception for the backstory was more player-inclusive than what it ultimately developed into under your influence. Crezth isn't the type to be lying to please the rabid storyist mob.
I don't really feel like arguing much more than I already have. Suffice to say, you're burning a lot of bridges here by behaving like such a raging douche. It'll be extremely satisfying for all of us when you lose despite all of your l33t math skillz.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Day and a half where no submissions came in. Note that he didn't close submissions afterward:
[bolding mine]
Okay man.
Where did he say he was interested in a coherent backstory?
crezth said:
And where did I persuade him to abandon his support for a backstory? We spent a month waiting on you to put one together, remember?
Nobody did cultural submissions, so he thought it would be easier if he asked for nation submissions instead. Which he got three of. OH THE HORROR*
*I never asked that you be put in charge of putting together a backstory. From what I understand Crezth put you in charge of it because you were clearly the one who cared about it. Maybe it was telling what he actually wanted when he didn't want to bother with it himself, hmm?
hurr durr
The bottom line is that you're still trying to direct a game in a way that the moderator apparently isn't very interested in, given his lack of attention to storyist aspects of the game both during rules development and subsequently after launch. Your insistence on adding storyist aspects of the game, in my opinion, just led to false advertising of what this NES was actually offering.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
^^ hostile atmosphere 
At least, it shows we are involved enough in this NES to start arguing about it.
It also makes me look back rosily on NEB1 and ZPNESV. Those were much more easy-going, albeit at the expense of being rather silly.
At least, it shows we are involved enough in this NES to start arguing about it.
It also makes me look back rosily on NEB1 and ZPNESV. Those were much more easy-going, albeit at the expense of being rather silly.
Kraznaya
Princeps
^^ hostile atmosphere
At least, it shows we are involved enough in this NES to start arguing about it.
It also makes me look back rosily on NEB1 and ZPNESV. Those were much more easy-going, albeit at the expense of being rather silly.
It could've been just as lighthearted but someone insisted otherwise.
Personally I find Crezth-humor in his updates amusing but it's not for everyone, especially if you can't detect purposely acerbic tone due to ESL or something.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
+1 Like :.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
I don't think we need a thread full of stories, just a feeling that we are playing a nation with goals and fears. Not just a player in a boardgame with vendettas against other players.
I think this could be achieved with a few little references in the update. In ZPNESV I had an opening paragraph giving an overview of events in-universe style, and that seemed to be enough to keep Iggy involved as the Technocrats, Thlayli as COBRA, Kraz as the Kalifat, etc etc, both in orders and in diplomacy. A feedback loop that brought a bit of narrative to the game, it became a world (albeit a silly one) rather than a game-board. If its not mentioned in the update, players seem to assume it doesn't exist. I'd write more and better narrative for my nation if I didn't think I was just talking to myself.
But again, I understand this is the BETA and we should probably look at this as a cold hard test of the underlying mechanics. IMO though, its interesting to see how bitter feelings arise in the absence of a buffer of 'character' to our nations. Its just player vs player and I admit to feeling a personal feud with Thlayli here
EDIT:
Indeed I do appreciate the little touches - like when the Magyar official was captured at my old capital
I think this could be achieved with a few little references in the update. In ZPNESV I had an opening paragraph giving an overview of events in-universe style, and that seemed to be enough to keep Iggy involved as the Technocrats, Thlayli as COBRA, Kraz as the Kalifat, etc etc, both in orders and in diplomacy. A feedback loop that brought a bit of narrative to the game, it became a world (albeit a silly one) rather than a game-board. If its not mentioned in the update, players seem to assume it doesn't exist. I'd write more and better narrative for my nation if I didn't think I was just talking to myself.
But again, I understand this is the BETA and we should probably look at this as a cold hard test of the underlying mechanics. IMO though, its interesting to see how bitter feelings arise in the absence of a buffer of 'character' to our nations. Its just player vs player and I admit to feeling a personal feud with Thlayli here
EDIT:
It could've been just as lighthearted but someone insisted otherwise.
Personally I find Crezth-humor in his updates amusing but it's not for everyone, especially if you can't detect purposely acerbic tone due to ESL or something.
Indeed I do appreciate the little touches - like when the Magyar official was captured at my old capital
Kraznaya
Princeps
I don't think we need a thread full of stories, just a feeling that we are playing a nation with goals and fears. Not just a player in a boardgame with vendettas against other players.
I think this could be achieved with a few little references in the update. In ZPNESV I had an opening paragraph giving an overview of events in-universe style, and that seemed to be enough to keep Iggy involved as the Technocrats, Thlayli as COBRA, Kraz as the Kalifat, etc etc, both in orders and in diplomacy. A feedback loop that brought a bit of narrative to the game, it became a world (albeit a silly one) rather than a game-board. If its not mentioned in the update, players seem to assume it doesn't exist. I'd write more and better narrative for my nation if I didn't think I was just talking to myself.
But again, I understand this is the BETA and we should probably look at this as a cold hard test of the underlying mechanics. IMO though, its interesting to see how bitter feelings arise in the absence of a buffer of 'character' to our nations. Its just player vs player and I admit to feeling a personal feud with Thlayli here
Personally I don't think a paragraph of text would make that big of a difference; after all, it's just a summary of events that could actually be automated with sufficiently advanced software. I know the first thing I did when ZPNES updated was rush to open the map, because that summarized the events of the turn the quickest.
The real issue in player grudges is IC/OOC separation, and whether you actually adhere to it outside the mechanics of the game. That is, there are some friends you'd be happy playing Diplomacy and Neptune's Pride, and others you'd rather not stay away from in that context, especially if they're invested to the point of full throated name calling when things go badly for them.
Let's not forget that Duckistan had almost no characterization in ZPNES; the fact that it was the dominant power was enough to manufacture sufficient narrative for the game as a whole. Everything else was cheery self aggrandizement for not-so-serious states, something that's fitting for these kinds of games and IMO is not as easy when players were pigeon holed into cultural concepts upon nation creation and forced to acknowledge 4000 YEARS OF GLORIOUS GREAT PARSHA HISTORY. Still, I disagree with the idea that this game lacks narrative even with Crezth's current lack of prose; the Basques' epic trolling of their neighbors and Matt's betrayal are two good ones to name a few.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
Just to clarify.
Didn't write the story for the bonus. I (apparently wrongly) assumed mod points were a token of appreciation, and when I'd like to add flavor to my nation it was kind of blah that I didn't have the ability to due to insufficient appreciation; you know, when you present your creation to people and they don't like it as much as something else.
Storyists want their things to be read and liked you know. There's a reason we post our crap here. So when mods award stories, the awards suddenly become an important measure of whether you're doing something right or wrong. They wouldn't care about the awards if, well, the mods didn't award the stories. Then they'd ask other people what they thought of their stories instead (They often do that regardless of story awards)
.
Kraznaya
Princeps
oh god is this really why you write
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
tldr backstory is wrong and the only thing that matters is numbers
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
Your question is nonsensical man.
One post is Daftpanzer asking if you can treat NPCs like dynamic organizations that can act like PCs, and asking if you can liberate NPCs from other players. The other is lj being frustrated with purely aesthetic bonuses. Please stop misrepresenting.
Yeah, just like how you want no numbers, and everything that happens should only happen if somebody writes it in a story.
Grow up.
He is drawing attention to your admission that you, apparently, only write in order to gain the adulation of others. In other words, you are a self-described attention [seeker]. And, among other things, this is not consonant with Iggy's implied claim that storyists write stories because stories.
I'm sure he's not surprised, because this is how you act in other contexts, too, and it's certainly not new.
Look, nobody's said that stories are unwelcome in the thread, or that backstory is intrinsically bad and shouldn't be dealt with. But neither one of those things is even a focus of this particular NES, much less a necessity to contextualize actions, as they might be in other NESes. If some people want to create a character for themselves to act in, that's fine. More power to you. Have fun with it. Just don't impose it on anybody else. And if other people don't really care about the backstory you're inventing ex nihilo for the NES, don't expect a few handjob posts every time you come up with a story for the thread.
Moderator Action: Let's not bring the insanity of #NES to the forums. Especially if it is just to embarass or attack others. #NES is not the model for posting here and what goes on there should stay there. I have deleted the copy/paste from there.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 6,976
Interjection: I find the chatter on Capto Iugulum in that transcript far more interesting than lord joakim's bisexyness. You should all know that spryllino's France is an awful, pseudo-Holy Roman Empire patchwork Frankenstein's monster with like barely any relevance to "our France" at all. I think it's important to tell you because reasons. Hey, postcount!
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Spoiler :
I think what really is happening is the Storyi-arcadi-stimationi-board game mix that is NES is getting really really really mixed up. People all have different expectations of what stories deserve, mod points get, and whether the NES "itself" is just the stats and interaction, or will stories have a significant impact in it, backstories and blah blah blah, that sort of thing.
In my honest opinion- the type of game is up to Crezth, and it is his job to tell everyone what he expects. Does he want the backstory to matter or not? It's up to him. How about stories? It's up to him. It is also up to him to tell people his expectations, and up to the players to keep it on track. I would like to say in a recent DiploNES I've wrote stories unsolicited, and I had a blast even while losing as Italy.
Apparently there is also some issues with moderating- however, from what I've seen we're all (supposedly) human here and we all make mistakes. We cannot expect any moderator to be perfect, only to recognize grievances as they come up and to notify the players what they want from them. From what I've observed is that Crezth is doing a decent job, and streamlining a semi-automatic boardgame while running a semi-regularly updating game must be quite a thing to balance with real life- something everyone who ever moded a game before must appreciate. Yes, maybe he made questionable mistakes/decisions. SO DID I, and so did perhaps every moderator in the history of NESing.
As an impartial outsider to this conversation, I would like to ask everybody to respect/wait for Crezth to make his final decision on what is going down in his NES or take the conversation to the While We Wait or #NES/#Neverending. I've enjoyed this thread for nearly two dozen pages without too much strangeness, but this is a bit to much.
tl;dr: Complaints are due to argument of styles of NESing as they apply to a primarily boardgame-type NES. In the end it is up to Crezth. Grievances should be notified towards the Moderator first, amongst parties (i.e. a weirdly calculated battle) next, and with everyone as the final resort. And you guys should wait for Crezth's final decision on what's going to happen and take the arguments outside until then.
tl;dr: tl;dr: It's up to Crezth. Moderator-Player balance concerning style, purpose and problems in a particular NES.
Thank you very much.