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Coastal city buffs

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Ziad, Jun 20, 2019.

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How would you buff coastal cities in the wake of the June 2019 patch?

  1. Fishing Boats have additional Production yields (immediately or through tech tree like Camps)

    24 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Fishing Boats provide +1 housing (immediately or increase to +1 housing after a tech)

    25 vote(s)
    34.7%
  3. Coastal cities receive a bonus to trade routes. (Limit # of outgoing trade routes per city?)

    24 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. Celestial Navigation not a leaf tech

    18 vote(s)
    25.0%
  5. Harbor/Lighthouse moved to Sailing and Celestial Navigation reworked/removed

    15 vote(s)
    20.8%
  6. Shipyard provides 1 Housing

    10 vote(s)
    13.9%
  7. Fisheries provide 0.5 Housing (immediately or through tech tree)

    17 vote(s)
    23.6%
  8. Industrial Zones receive a bonus adjacency from Harbors and/or Bonus sea resources

    31 vote(s)
    43.1%
  9. Campuses receive a bonus adjacency from Reefs and/or Luxury sea resources

    9 vote(s)
    12.5%
  10. Water tiles now provide +2 food and Lighthouse adds +1 gold to tiles

    17 vote(s)
    23.6%
  11. Food/Production yields also doubled for moving over water (like gold)

    13 vote(s)
    18.1%
  12. Additional policy choices for coastal/colonial cities

    22 vote(s)
    30.6%
  13. Other

    8 vote(s)
    11.1%
  14. Disaster positives (hurricanes) and ability to repair districts/buildings with gold.

    17 vote(s)
    23.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    A simple starting point for fixing coastal cities is to allow a city to have a trade route for a commercial hub and another for a harbor, as it used to be.
     
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  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    There are some good suggestions in the voting.

    Coastal Cities could maybe use a small direct buff, but overall I really hope FXS don’t focus too much on just flat out direct buffs to Coastal Cities. I’d rather they tweak some of the underlying mechanics to make them better.

    And on that note...

    I really hope they don’t do that. It’s just messy.

    But I would like to see Harbours + Lighthouse being made relatively stronger than Commercial Hubs + Markets, so that Coastal Cities were overall more important to your gold economy. That could be as simple as just reducing the gold the market gives you.
     
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  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Man, I keep saying this I know, but make them sooner and they'll be better. Getting the TR a full age before commercial hubs would be really good.
     
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Hmm. Except I think Harbours are actually designed to be something you mostly get later in the game, ie after Commercial Hubs, unless you’re deliberately bee-lining a Naval game.

    Link and quote:

     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  5. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    I thought about this long and hard. How do you classify a city as coastal? In civ6 a city one tile inland, on a river, could also have a harbor.
    Then, there are coastal cities that have mere 1 seatile adjacent.
    Any of the usual options are unfair towards cities that cant have a harbor, or are proposing buffing coastal tiles with arbitrary yields.

    Coastal cities, historically, without plentiful fresh water were never going to be big. Yes, but importance for trade you say etc.

    Here’s my unorthodox solution: lighthouse building, along with its current effects, provides 0.5 housing per worked coastal tile and halves tile purchase costs for this city.

    This ensures balanced benefits for truly coastal cities while also providing value for inland cities with a harbor. Ability to work good land tiles is paramount for coastal civs, along with more housing.

    This way as a coastal city you’re incentivized to work a mix of coast+land to grow and be productive
     
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  6. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    This is going to be an admittedly half measure of a solution (I should probably use quotations around that word), but I wouldn't mind a wholly maritime/naval-themed governor. I know many of you don't enjoy them as much as I do, but [insert name here] the Mariner has a nice ring to it and I would take any excuse for another governor to be added to the game. :)
     
    Ziad likes this.
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I think we need more Governors period. If there were a few more, you could maybe have two or three really good Coastal Cities that generate gold or whatever, instead of just Reyna and maybe Liang.

    Keep the cap of no more than seven Governors and maybe have a few unlock later in the game. That would work.
     
    Ziad likes this.
  8. SharTeel

    SharTeel Chieftain

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    I think that the only way to buff coastal cities without indirectly buffing inland cities 1 tile from the coast is to have some policy cards that only affect cities DIRECTLY on the coast. Also, let's keep tiles having different yields, I wouldn't like a game where every tile is the same as the next one with different textures
     
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  9. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    This is where the flaws in the policy card system show themselves. With so precious few policy card slots, it's hard to justify dedicating a slot or two to niches like coastal and colonial cities. With 5's policy tree system, one could dive into the Exploration tree without without sacrificing the science gains from Rationalism, for instance.
     
    Ziad likes this.
  10. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Coastal cities should profit more from sea resources (maybe even in range 4 or 5?) and from trade routes (if it is not at the end of the world).
    In real world inland cities often send caravans/trains to coastal cities where trade goods are placed on freighters and shipped to global market. Cities/markets in general should profit more from passing trade routes and coastal cities in good spots would profit more.
    Without coastal cities, trade income should be more difficult to achieve. ( "Transport by sea was around 60 times cheaper than by land" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome#Economy) ) But this would require to have transportation costs in the game and maybe even trade route capacities for cities/markets/harbors.
     
    Ziad likes this.
  11. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    What I'd like to see most is dismantling of Celestial Navigation. As I said in some other thread, move Harbours to Sailing, everything else - to Shipbuilding and this alone will significantly increase attractiveness of going coastal.
    Bigger adjacencies from Harbours to IZ also would be nice, as more bonuses for TR moving by sea. Also Harbour specialists should give gold and production yields, not food, and that would be about it.

    I'm very sceptical about giving more production to sea resource improvements, let Auckland remain as awesome as it is now :) And I also fail to see how a hurricane could have positive effects, apart, maybe from giving temporary +1 science in the pillaged tiles, to simulate weather studies :)

    The importance of coastal cities can be increased in other indirect ways. For example, if trading of luxuries and strategic resources would only be possible with those civs, where you have at least one established trading post, that would incentivize sending overseas TR, which on its own would incentivize more and earlier exploration and necessity to have at least some coastal cities earlier. Now, early game these goods are moved on magic carpets, it seems.
     
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  12. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Just making water tiles not crap would go a long way. This way, it doesn't really matter if the "coastal" city is directly on the coast or a few tiles away but with a harbor.
    +2 food to coast probably too much though (fish tiles would be an early 5 food for one thing! it would make fish reefs yield more than some NW tiles); but I do think +1 food would be OK (such that coast by default is 2 food, same as BNW)... a lighthouse would give +1f and +1p (extra +1 for sea resource), same as BNW. Shipyard a further +1 production to sea resources (same as BNW harbor) and a seaport a further +1p +1g to sea resource (same as BNW).

    Actually BNW got the balance just about right. I had no idea while they felt they had to tweak the yields in CivVI.

    Voted for the fishing boats/fisheries buff mostly.
    Double yield for water routes (same as BNW) would be good...
     
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  13. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    So much good feedback so far!

    I think generally people want better coastal tile yields, trade, policies, or district compatibility. Fair enough.
     
  14. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    To my mind, any city that could build a Harbor is a coastal city. I'm not sure what else ought to differentiate a "coastal" city from an "inland" city. I do often place a City Center right on the coast, but that's usually because of fresh water restrictions. Once in a while, there's a strategic reason to claim hexes far offshore.

    ---

    More Policy Card ideas [Name - Current Effect - Proposed Additional Effect]:
    Wisselbanken - Trade Routes to an Ally +2 Food & +2 Production; Alliance Points with each Ally grow 25% faster - +1 Housing, +1 Amenity if both cities have a Harbor.
    Market Economy - International Trade Routes +1 Gold, +2 Culture, +2 Science per Strategic Resource improved at the destination - +0.5 Food per Farm or Neighborhood at the destination city.
     
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  15. BenitoChavez

    BenitoChavez Whispering Walrus

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    I always thought that flood barriers should protect your city from hurricane damage. I know flood barriers come kind of late in the game but it at least makes sense thematically.

    Also fisheries definitely need some sort of housing attached to them. Getting a ton of food doesn't mean much if your city is maxed out on housing.
     
  16. SxSnts9

    SxSnts9 Warlord

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    I'm fine with improving coastal cities and I like the idea of trade being majorly buffed in them (Thematically), but it's already wayyyy too easy to have a ridiculously strong economy. It's why Persia is by far my favorite civ to play. I have a game going with them right now where there are no rivers around and I'm on a relatively skinny land mass so all of my cities have harbors instead. I'm still swimming in gold without a single commercial hub.

    So if we're going to make coastal cities even stronger with trade/gold then we need to have a malus to some other systems of generating gold. Or else everyone will just be an economic powerhouse with minimal effort.
     
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  17. ShrimpTruck

    ShrimpTruck Chieftain

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    I think coastal cities are hampered by the fact that long-distance international trade is not incentivized. If you can send land trade routes to your three allies within thirty tiles, you will not send any sea trade routes to over sixty tiles away just because it's unnecessary.

    I propose that players are forced to send trade routes to other civs to get the benefit of any diplomacy trades (i.e. I have to send a trade route to China to get his silk; he has to send a trade route to me to get my 4 gpt). In trades for either flat gold or strategic resources, the gold or resources would be traded immediately once a trade route was in place. This would both incentivize sending trade routes to a diverse set of players and sending trade routes all across the globe (to get the luxuries from every continent). By making long-distance trade so important, players would be encouraged to send maritime trade routes because they are so much more efficient for long distances.

    A side effect of this change is that trade chokepoints would emerge (à la Strait of Malacca). Play around this could be encouraged by adding say a building mutually exclusive with the shipyard that gives 3 gpt for each foreign trade route passing through and/or buffing the Reyna ability to be take 4 gpt from foreign trade routes passing through. Civs could also be given the ability to block their cities to trade routes from certain players (like an embargo).

    The two problems I see with this is that a) you are forced to use too many trade routes and b) trading posts take waaay too long to get. These could be fixed by reintroducing the stacking of market and lighthouse trade route capacity for a) and making it so that trading posts are established the first time your trader reaches a city for b).

    This would promote diplomacy, wacky and fun trade routes, and maritime play by making trade routes necessary for trade.
     
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  18. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Or just by making TR on water travel faster. Ships may seem slow, but they go steady round the clock and carry a lot, while carriers on land must deal with terrain constraints, road infrastructure problems, lower cargo capacity and sleeping patterns. :)

    And welcome to the Forums!:wavey:
     
  19. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Coastal cities have really lost out on sea resources going from premier tiles you were desperate for (civ5,) to extremely mediocre ones.
    A fish tile currently is worth what, 2 food 1 Gold.
    With fishing boats that's 3 food. Grassland farm level of food. Lighthouse gets you to 4 food - a feudalism grassland farm.

    Whereas in civ5, the fish tile was 2 food; 3 food with boats - but the lighthouse boosted it to 5 food, 1 production.
    Farm rules have also made them the superior food source for growth - in civ5, for example, 4 food was the best a normal farm could do late game. FOUR. Now we can get 6,7,8 easily.

    So basically, make not the sea tiles but the sea resources very worthwhile. I dislike the fishery, I feel like it's a bit of a band-aid. But bring back the +:c5production: for sea resources via harbor buildings, at least at the lighthouse.

    I also think that early coastal empires would become a lot more viable vs some of the current land leviathans out there if the trade route bonus modifier got extended to food and prod and to domestic routes. If you followed the same rules (only affects the base value, not +yield tack-ons from cards and select buildings) then you could very early on, have your coastal capital receiving trade routes from your coastal colonies, worth something like +8/+8. This would be a very big strategic shift, because it would encourage early development of big coastal hubs. (This would also have the added effect of making railroads extremely valuable later on.)
     
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  20. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, when people talk about "buffing coastal cities", that's the key point to me. One big reason why I like not giving a separate trade route from a Harbor is that too often, I would simply build a harbor for the trade route. Got a one tile lake? Harbor for a free trade route. It seems... cheap to do that. Now, the flipside, you need to make sure that coastal cities have a reason to exist, and that there's actually a reason to settle them. Even a lot of the above ideas of giving coastal cities a bonus for trade routes, does that apply to any city built on the coast? Any city with a harbor? Does the trade route itself have to go through the coast? Does it have to pass by the harbor?

    Yeah, that's where I was thinking the biggest bonuses need to be. There's no reason a fish tile with the harbor buildings should fall behind a similar land tile. Early game, you can pretty easily get 4f land tiles, and it's not hard to get a 5f tile (sugar tends to be 5f, or a marsh/resource with a water mill), so absolutely a file+fishing boat+lighthouse should start at 5f. Mid-game farms can push those onto 6 or 7 food, so again, there needs to be multiple other bonuses for fishing boats through the tech tree as well. Not to mention that if that land tile happens to be on an active river, it can flood and gain even more.

    If you do that, and then add some other bonuses to those tiles (maybe +! production for fishing boats from shipyards and seaports?), so that by the end of the game, a fish tile becomes a super-valuable tile to have. So maybe initial suggestions:
    -Fish adds +2f to a tile
    -Fishing boat adds +1f
    -Lighthouse adds +1f to all coast tiles, +1p to sea resources
    -Shipyard adds +1p to all coast tiles
    -Seaport adds +2g to all coast tiles, +1p to all sea resources
    -Fishing boats gain an extra +2f and +2g through the tech tree
    Maybe I'm a couple points too much, but something like this would have me searching coasts to settle to make use of these tiles.
     
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